pool voltage need help

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korean1

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Checking a friends saltwater in-ground liner pool.
he's getting shocked exiting the pool at certain times.
so i started from the main. Found that his house ground was not attached. So we installed a copper 8 ft rod and clamp.
checking pump, it has a ground rod with wire attached for pump case. Timers and switches are grounded back to main panel. So all this appears grounded and safe.
checked pool, getting 3 volts ac with a lead in water to handrail. Handrails and diving board and slide are all in cased in concrete. Concrete is still in excellent condition. No cracks or deterioration.
So i checked to see if the lights being turned on would increase the voltage by using the same test method as above. No change. 3 volts.
2 lights and both are led with changing color progeam. (I know that is pointless to voltage but wanted to mention so you would know a possible type)
So I'm slightly ruling out the lights due to when their not on I'm still getting voltage.
also skimmers are plastic.
ruling out the pump. I checked case to ground and thats good. Turned off pump to see if change in water voltage. Nothing.
So need some ideas on where this ghost voltage is coming from.
 

augie47

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Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
.......................
checking pump, it has a ground rod with wire attached for pump case. .

Sends up a BIG red flag to me. Is there an equipotential bonding system ?
If there is, the pump would be connected to it !
Have you checked continuity between the metallic areas of the pool such as the handrails, etc. and the pump.
The voltage can occur from may sources including the utility if there is not a compliant equipotential bonding grid.
 

Dennis Alwon

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Chapel Hill, NC
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Retired Electrical Contractor
Turn the main off if you still have 3 volts then the voltage may be coming from the utility side. I assume there is no equipotential bonding
 

korean1

Member

korean1

Member
Sends up a BIG red flag to me. Is there an equipotential bonding system ?
If there is, the pump would be connected to it !
Have you checked continuity between the metallic areas of the pool such as the handrails, etc. and the pump.
The voltage can occur from may sources including the utility if there is not a compliant equipotential bonding grid.


Yeah i guess I'm going to make a rig to check continuity between rails and slides..
Good idea on the ground rod and bonding system. That may just be a problem of the larger problem.
 

augie47

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Tennessee
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State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
Yeah i guess I'm going to make a rig to check continuity between rails and slides..
Good idea on the ground rod and bonding system. That may just be a problem of the larger problem.

and potentially a life threatening one......
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I don't know how well you understand the purpose of an equipotential bond system at a pool or how it works, but here is a description of what it is all about.

All conductive items in or near the pool (basically anything within reach of a user of the pool) need bonding jumpers between them to eliminate any voltage potential between them.This includes conductive lighting shells, ladders, diving platforms, concrete reinforcement bars, conductive fences, any other conductive item (I believe within 5 feet of the pool) and the water itself must be bonded, but many times that is accomplished just by having a bonded metal object already in the water.

The idea here is no matter what voltage this bonding network may be above true earth, and it could be thousands of volts, there is still no voltage between any two bonded objects and no matter what a user touches he will not experience any voltage between two objects. Same reason a bird on an overhead high voltage line doesn't get shocked, it is not touching anything that is different in potential.

You say your friend is getting shocked exiting the pool. All it takes is someone forgetting to bond the exit ladder to the rest of the system and you have a "hole" in the bonding system where voltage could develop. The rest of the pool may be bonded and above true ground but this ladder may be at or at least closer to true ground.

Having some voltage between the service grounded conductor and "earth" is fairly normal, this is because of the way POCO's ground their neutral conductor at nearly every structure and is complicated even more by voltage drop on that multiple grounded conductor. We effectively extend this voltage to the pool area via the equipment grounding conductor we run to the pump to the lights, or any other electrical equipment associated with the pool.

I suspect you have either no equipotential bonding or a "hole" in the system. You probably need to check for voltage between the pool water and conductive objects in or around the pool. Testing to a remote grounded object does you no good - you should expect higher voltage from that test, but objects within a pool user's reach should have no voltage between them, or you have bonding issues.
 

korean1

Member
I don't know how well you understand the purpose of an equipotential bond system at a pool or how it works, but here is a description of what it is all about.

All conductive items in or near the pool (basically anything within reach of a user of the pool) need bonding jumpers between them to eliminate any voltage potential between them.This includes conductive lighting shells, ladders, diving platforms, concrete reinforcement bars, conductive fences, any other conductive item (I believe within 5 feet of the pool) and the water itself must be bonded, but many times that is accomplished just by having a bonded metal object already in the water.

The idea here is no matter what voltage this bonding network may be above true earth, and it could be thousands of volts, there is still no voltage between any two bonded objects and no matter what a user touches he will not experience any voltage between two objects. Same reason a bird on an overhead high voltage line doesn't get shocked, it is not touching anything that is different in potential.

You say your friend is getting shocked exiting the pool. All it takes is someone forgetting to bond the exit ladder to the rest of the system and you have a "hole" in the bonding system where voltage could develop. The rest of the pool may be bonded and above true ground but this ladder may be at or at least closer to true ground.

Having some voltage between the service grounded conductor and "earth" is fairly normal, this is because of the way POCO's ground their neutral conductor at nearly every structure and is complicated even more by voltage drop on that multiple grounded conductor. We effectively extend this voltage to the pool area via the equipment grounding conductor we run to the pump to the lights, or any other electrical equipment associated with the pool.

I suspect you have either no equipotential bonding or a "hole" in the system. You probably need to check for voltage between the pool water and conductive objects in or around the pool. Testing to a remote grounded object does you no good - you should expect higher voltage from that test, but objects within a pool user's reach should have no voltage between them, or you have bonding issues.

Yes correct. That's the voltage I have been getting from pool water to handrails and slides and diving board. All those have no sleeves in the concrete. They are encased completely and both concrete and poles are in excellent condition.
The ground rod next to the pump is approx 15 ft away. Again, this may be part of a larger problem.
1. Where is the voltage originating.
2. Is the ground grid good or full of holes.
Fun stuff.
 

GoldDigger

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Re: 1, it is possible that there is current flowing through the earth and causing a voltage between the pump ground rid and the pool area. Or there may be fault current flowing through the pump ground connection and raising the pump and water above earth potential. The only way to be sure the voltages are the same (equipotential) is to have a solid metallic connection between the two points.
Which does lead us to item 2. Clearly there is no grid connection between pump and pool area metal.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Yes correct. That's the voltage I have been getting from pool water to handrails and slides and diving board. All those have no sleeves in the concrete. They are encased completely and both concrete and poles are in excellent condition.
The ground rod next to the pump is approx 15 ft away. Again, this may be part of a larger problem.
1. Where is the voltage originating.
2. Is the ground grid good or full of holes.
Fun stuff.

1. doesn't matter where it originates if...
2. is a system with no holes in it.

which is the reason the rules are the way they are. They expect there to be possible potential above earth level, so bonding everything in reach of a user shields users from any stray voltages. You don't really need to ground this bonding system either, that is not it's primary intent, it's intent is to equalize potential between objects that users may come into contact with.

You can drive a hundred rods at the pump or at the service, it will have little effect on what you measure between pool water and metal objects in/near the pool.
 

StarCat

Industrial Engineering Tech
Location
Moab, UT USA
Occupation
Imdustrial Engineering Technician - HVACR Electrical and Mechanical Systems
Heater

Heater

The Boiler or heater has not been mentioned.
They can develop issues and should be looked at in detail.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
3-5 volts is a very normal voltage drop of a service neutral between the meter and the transformer, this voltage drop will raise the voltage on all the grounding and neutrals of this building to remote earth, this pool most likely has some or all of the equal potential bonding missing, and either the water is at earth potential, or hand rail (verifiable by running a wire out to a point in the yard 30' should be enough, putting a short rod or screw driver into earth then measure the voltage from the wire to the water, or hand rail, the one that give you 3 volts has a bond to the EGC of the pump or the pump casing, now do the same thing at the house meter, measure the voltage to remote earth from the meter case or even the ground rod, you should see the same voltage, this is a very normal voltage drop and is almost impossible to eliminate as it would take the POCO to replace the service neutral with a very large neutral conductor or some other trick that in most cases they would be very reluctant to do.

So since fixing the neutral problem is too hard, then the NEC now requires that we short together all metal, concrete, and water so a difference of potential can not exist within the reach of a person in the water, reading article 680 can show some of the methods this can be accomplished, it's called equal potential bonding.

But for the most part this has to be done when the pool was installed, so now you have a bigger problem, how can you install this after the fact, not impossible but in some cases it would take removing allot of the concrete deck and exposing the metal shell of the pool or the re-bar in the concrete shell of the pool if there is any, then bonding it to all the metal parts and pump, heater, railings, and even the concrete deck around the pool by bonding the re-bar in it, but hopefully you can use one of my tricks below.

NO GROUND RODS at a pool!!!

This is one of the most misunderstood practices that many do, a ground rod will not remove this voltage that has many amps of current behind it and can not reduce this voltage, lets say you have a good rod and got the code minimum of 25 ohms, @ 3 volts will only cause 120ma of current flow, no where near enough to affect this voltage.

If this voltage goes away when the main is turned off then it is caused by the voltage drop of the service neutral, if it remains then it is a voltage drop from the primary neutral feeding the transformer, it could be a bad primary neutral connection (MGN) that the POCO can track down and fix, another method is to get the POCO to install a neutral isolator or neutral blocker, installed between the primary neutral and the secondary neutral, if this is a normal voltage drop on the MGN then it would remove this problem, but if it is coming from the secondary neutral voltage drop then the only way would be to over size the service neutral to the transformer.

here are some of the other dangers you are dealing with if you do not have an EPB around the pool:

a loss of a connection of the service neutral from the point of the main bonding jumper and the transformer will result in very high voltages between the water and this hand rail.

A large fault to the neutral or grounding from any hot will also cause the hand rail voltage to be increased.

the two above will cause the neutral to earth voltages at the service to rise much higher which through the EGC to the pool which could cause a high enough voltage to cause a person to be killed.


Here is my arm chair thoughts on what could be going on:

from what you have said, the railing is bonded to the pump which is bonded to the service neutral via the EGC ran to the pump, the water is at earth potential thus giving you the 3 volt drop of the service neutral??

my second version is that the pool installers did bond the pool casing to the pump but when the deck installers installed the deck they didn't install the bond from the pool or pump to the hand rail or the re-bar in the deck???? again then this puts the pool water at the voltage drop of the service neutral to earth and the hand rail along with the deck at the potential of remote earth???

running a small wire 30' away from the pool and connecting it to a small rod or even a screw driver stuck into the soil, then use the other end of the wire to see what is at the earth potential and what is at the potential of the service grounding (PUMP EGC), this will tell you what is bonded and what is not, then you could find a fix for what is not bonded to the service neutral putting a 1k ohm resistor between you leads will also keep you from reading stray voltage, I wrap it around the plugs right where it plugs into the meter, if measuring to the water the resistor will reduce the reading but shouldn't when reading to remote earth to the pump or hand rail, I would take readings with the resistor and without.

if it turns out that only the deck/handrail is the problem then talk them into a new deck this time with the proper bonding to the pump and pool, another fix and a cheaper choice is to have a concrete person saw cut a grove large enough for a #8 bare solid coper wire in the deck to the hand rail from the pump to lay a #8 solid copper wire in it with at least 20 feet of the wire to be in the grove, if this can be done in or at the location of an existing grove it would not be as noticeable, fill the grove back in with concrete and finish to match the existing, bond it to both the pump and the hand rail, this is only if the test above shows the 0 volts from the hand rail to remote earth but 3 volts from the hand rail to the pump grounding.

Let us know what you found
 
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GoldDigger

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I have one major problem with your otherwise useful treatise, and that is in the first paragraph: if you measure the same voltage between remote earth and water as between remote earth and handrail, you will not have a voltage difference between water and handrail as the OP described. (Unless there is a phase difference, which is unlikely.)
More likely the handrail is close to remote earth, since there is no current flowing through it. The pump, on the other hand, is connected to service ground as well as to local ground via a ground rod. If there is any voltage between the solid service ground/neutral and remote earth the ground rod will not change that. There is the voltage difference between water (bonded effectively only to the pump unless there are also light fixtures) and the handrails.
 
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hurk27

Senior Member
I have one major problem with your otherwise useful treatise: if you measure the same voltage between remote earth and water as between remote earth and handrail, you will not have a voltage difference between water and handrail as the OP described. (Unless there is a phase difference, which is unlikely.

Yep I was editing it as you posted:ashamed:, cought it, thank's



More likely the handrail is close to remote earth, since there is no current flowing through it. The pump, on the other hand, is connected to service ground as well as to local ground via a ground rod. If there is any voltage between the solid service ground/neutral and remote earth the ground rod will not change that. There is the voltage difference between water (bonded effectively only to the pump unless there are also light fixtures) and the handrails.

my thoughts also
 

FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Occupation
Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
NO GROUND RODS at a pool!!!

This is one of the most misunderstood practices that many do, a ground rod will not remove this voltage that has many amps of current behind it and can not reduce this voltage, lets say you have a good rod and got the code minimum of 25 ohms, @ 3 volts will only cause 120ma of current flow, no where near enough to affect this voltage.

bonding (where several gnd rods are on same bonding) should be a good thing, no?

the issue i see with just bonding is that leaves possibility that the voltage on such bonding can be bridged by wet feet between bonded item and some other lower potential item (earth, other, etc). if voltage comes from gfci side then gfci should trip before wet feet make that bridge.

do pools ever develop static charge??

your thoughts?
 
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FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Occupation
Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
bonding (where several gnd rods are on same bonding) should be a good thing, no?

the issue i see with just bonding is that leaves possibility that the voltage on such bonding can be bridged by wet feet between bonded item and some other lower potential item (earth, other, etc). if voltage comes from gfci side then gfci should trip before wet feet make that bridge.

do pools ever develop static charge??

your thoughts?

sorry, i also meant to add, bonding with gnd rods where the whole thing is tied to service gnd (aka "earth gnd"). does this mess with ability of gfci to function properly?
 
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