Poor design choice

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southernboys

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Hey guys just out of curiosity. Helped a friend out today wiring a highend home. In the kitchen are two 20a gifi circuits which is fine. On one he has the refridge and dining room as well as one other kitchen counter plug. On the other he has 12 plugs. To me we should have pulled two more homeruns. one just for the fridge and one to divide the 12 plugs. Just out of curiosity how would you guys have done it. Thanks
 
Re: Poor design choice

homerun for the fridge since most spec it to be dedicated anyway

homerun for the dining room/nook

probably 3 or 4 countertop circuits depending on the size and layout of the kitchen but since you said 13 receps total its obviously large.

flamesuit on
 
Re: Poor design choice

Hey, any highend home deserves many, many home runs. For 13 countertop receptacles, I'd have had about 4 home runs in accordance with my usual custom. Fridge, disposer, microwave, dishwasher each also get a home run when I'm doing the ruff. It wouldn't be unusual for me to have 8 or 10 120 volt home runs in a higher end kitchen. Seems silly seeing the homeowner drop 10 grand on granite countertops and have the electrician skimp a few hundred bucks on a few more home runs. I understand that some guys work in more competitive markets where (business wise) they can't really operate this way. Luckily, those restraints normally aren't a factor for me.
 
Re: Poor design choice

I'd have had about 4 home runs in accordance with my usual custom. Fridge, disposer, microwave, dishwasher each also get a home run when I'm doing the ruff. It wouldn't be unusual for me to have 8 or 10 120 volt home runs in a higher end kitchen. Seems silly seeing the homeowner drop 10 grand on granite countertops and have the electrician skimp a few hundred bucks on a few more home runs.
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I hope you are getting paid for all this extra work, from what I'm understanding it sounds like you are giving all this extra wire, labor and material away just because, but then again I wonder how the highender got to live in a high end house :confused: I don't see any thing wrong with the wiring design of the kitchen.

[ January 20, 2006, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: Jhr ]
 
Re: Poor design choice

Originally posted by Jhr:
I'd have had about 4 home runs in accordance with my usual custom. Fridge, disposer, microwave, dishwasher each also get a home run when I'm doing the ruff. It wouldn't be unusual for me to have 8 or 10 120 volt home runs in a higher end kitchen. Seems silly seeing the homeowner drop 10 grand on granite countertops and have the electrician skimp a few hundred bucks on a few more home runs.
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I hope you are getting paid for all this extra work, from what I'm understanding it sounds like you are giving all this extra wire, labor and material away just because, but then again I wonder how the highender got to live in a high end house :confused: I don't see any thing wrong with the wiring design of the kitchen.
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What causes you to think I'm giving it away? I bid for work the same as anyone. My bid will be higher as a result of the things I do that exceed minimum requirements. This would knock me out of the running in more competitive areas, I know. I have that luxury where I'm situated.

No, there's nothing "wrong" with the proposed original design, but it may not be suited to the way a large kitchen in a high end home will be used. I'd rather not have to explain that to the future homeowner. To each his own. We all do things different. As long as it passes inspection, who am I to say?
 
Re: Poor design choice

What causes you to think I'm giving it away?
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OK, OK don't get your EMT in a kink I was simply stating what I thought your post was implying.
 
Re: Poor design choice

I must say that I would have used at least 4 circuits in a kitchen like that but no more than 5.(8-10?) OMG...just what would we expect a family of 5 -6 to use in here, are they all going to rush the kitchen pulling out fryers coffee pots, skillets, crock pots, ect all at the same time? I think not.folks this is all about demand and convenience. example...if you had 2 bedrooms , bedroom A had 1 recept on one circuit and bedroom B had a receptacle on every stud still on one circuit. the loads would be the same. you cant possibly use them all, its merely convenience and saftey from extension cords.
 
Re: Poor design choice

Originally posted by scwirenut:
I must say that I would have used at least 4 circuits in a kitchen like that but no more than 5.(8-10?) OMG...just what would we expect a family of 5 -6 to use in here, are they all going to rush the kitchen pulling out fryers coffee pots, skillets, crock pots, ect all at the same time?
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Yes, that's exactly what I've observed happening in kitchens where entertaining is done.

Permit me to explain where 8 or 10 kitchen home runs can come from:
1) Refrigerator
2) Dishwasher
3) Garbage Disposal
4) Microwave unit
5) Small Appliance Ckt#1
6) Small Appliance Ckt#2
7) Small Appliance Ckt#3
8) Small Appliance Ckt#4 (remember, we're assuming 13 countertop receptacles in this example)
9) Kitchen Lighting
10) Instant hot water dispenser
11) Trash compactor

My background is mostly service work, and I have added enough circuits to kitchen to believe that two small appliance circuits is very minimal, particularly in a fancier kitchen. My personal rule of thumb is 3 or 4 recs per ckt. for countertop receptacles. Consider that in higher end kitchens, often entertaining is done (which necessarily causes many small appliances to be used at the same time) and often more than one person is cooking.

[ January 20, 2006, 11:19 PM: Message edited by: mdshunk ]
 
Re: Poor design choice

1-Refridge / 4recepts in dining or breakfast
2-micro
3-dish/garbage
4-(4-100)recepts at counter
5-(4-100) recepts at counter


thats 40amps for the countertop , I dont care if it was 100 recepts on every stud, no family in a dwelling will excede 40amps at one time in one kitchen.and if they do, they better put a waffle house sign out front lol....
 
Re: Poor design choice

sorry, i just noticed the trash and instant h20
and would add 2 circuits for that, but a entire 20amp circuit for lighting? thats over 1900 connected watts, they better have suntan lotion...lol'
seriously, my main point is the convience of 1-100 outlets at the counter, even entertaining, the thought of using 20% of the average entire service at a dwelling counter is absurd, especially when the micro and dining /breakfast is still avail.
 
Re: Poor design choice

Originally posted by scwirenut:

seriously, my main point is the convience of 1-100 outlets at the counter, even entertaining, the thought of using 20% of the average entire service at a dwelling counter is absurd, especially when the micro and dining /breakfast is still avail.
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I agree. I would wire the average kitchen much the same as you have outlined. We're talking about the above average kitchen, in a higher end install. The high end home, with a high end kitchen, deserves special treatment. It will be used differently.

Yep... an entire circuit for kitchen lighting. You betcha in the high end kitchen. Under cab lights, over cab lights, toe kick lights, cans galore, pendants, tracks, etc. Lighting designers are having a fun time in the high end kitchen. One I'm working on at this very moment has 1800 watts of low voltage transformer load alone.

[ January 20, 2006, 11:32 PM: Message edited by: mdshunk ]
 
Re: Poor design choice

well I see im completely in a different world, High end homes in the midlands of SC are 4000sq/ft and max 320amp service. good luck and I hope you make a killing......... in a PS , we all know years ago in the kitchen they use to put everything on a single circuit, and because of this new age of gadget appliances ,those kitchens have serious problems, highly underpowered, that is an extreme, I was stating overpowering a kitchen with 8-10 is also an extreme. I think finding a happy medium or (value) is what we all strive for, however in your case , definitely not average, I could see "loading it down".........
 
Re: Poor design choice

Originally posted by scwirenut:
well I see im completely in a different world, High end homes in the midlands of SC are 4000sq/ft and max 320amp service. good luck and I hope you make a killing......... in a PS , we all know years ago in the kitchen they use to put everything on a single circuit, and because of this new age of gadget appliances ,those kitchens have serious problems, highly underpowered, that is an extreme, I was stating overpowering a kitchen with 8-10 is also an extreme. I think finding a happy medium or (value) is what we all strive for, however in your case , definitely not average, I could see "loading it down".........
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all i have done for the last year is florida style high end homes, 6000-18,000 sqft. this is what i am used to in high end homes-> most average a double oven, cooktop, advantium, warming drawer, compactor, 1 sometimes 2 subzero's, two disposals, dishwasher, wine cooler, 10-15 receps, BIG hood, 10-20 cans, 4-8 pendants, undercab, overcab, and in cab lighting. normal service size is 400-800A.

its real easy to use up wire in a monster kitchen.

[ January 20, 2006, 11:57 PM: Message edited by: PlnOldRick ]
 
Re: Poor design choice

Originally posted by PlnOldRick:
all i have done for the last year is florida style high end homes, 6000-18,000 sqft. this is what i am used to in high end homes-> most average a double oven, cooktop, advantium, warming drawer, compactor, 1 sometimes 2 subzero's, two disposals, dishwasher, wine cooler, 10-15 receps, BIG hood, 10-20 cans, 4-8 pendants, undercab, overcab, and in cab lighting. normal service size is 400-800A.

its real easy to use up wire in a monster kitchen.
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The 7500+ sq.ft. house we just finished must have a baby-monster kitchen. The kitchen has 'only' 10 6" cans, 6 4" cans, three pendants, and several under-cabinet fluorescents. There is one 'trick' in-cabinet fluorescent, inside the appliance garage, that I installed a push-button in; when the garage door is all the way open, the light comes on.

There is a total of five small-appliance circuits. I put only two receptacles on each one, not counting the dining room. There is a pair of receptacles to each side of the stove, a pair inside the garage, and one inside the microwave cubby. The dining room receptacles are on the microwave circuit, since it's not a built-in, (over-the-stove) one.

Onlt two receptacles per circuit may seem like overkill, but SA circuits are the only ones routinely loaded to near capacity with almost every use, and almost daily, with coffee-makers, toaster-ovens, etc. As in most homes, the dining room receptacles are rarely used, so that's why I placed them on the microwave circuit, with no GFCI.

On the large island, there is a receptacle on each end panel, protected by a GFCI receptacle in the third outlet, on the great-room side of the island, where the knees go. There is a remote-fan hood with warming lights, the electronic-ignition receptacle under the gas stove, and the under-cab lights, all on one circuit. Shouldn't be an issue.

Since the house has natural gas for cooking, hot water, and all three HVAC units, there is a minimal electrical heating load, so we found the 320-amp service to be adequate. We have taken some pictures, if anyone is interested in seeing them. I have rough-in and finished pix, even of the panels.
 
Re: Poor design choice

I have noticed a couple of posts here that speak of only one circuit being brought to the dinning room.

The NEC requires two SA circuits in dinning areas.
 
Re: Poor design choice

Originally posted by iwire:
I have noticed a couple of posts here that speak of only one circuit being brought to the dinning room.

The NEC requires two SA circuits in dinning areas.
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Bob, what article are you saying requires 2 SA's in the dining room?
 
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