Poor design choice

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Re: Poor design choice

Charlie, I agree. Nice explanation by the way. Wonder if Bob will agree? ;)
 
Re: Poor design choice

That last post was a bit wordy. Sorry, but it's a common trait of mine. Here's a shorter (and hopefully more to the point) version. Again, the key word is "the."

Do see a difference between these two:
</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">two or more circuits</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">the two or more circuits</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I do. The first version tells me that you must use at least two, and that you may use more. The second version just identifies which circuits are being discussed. It tells me that you must use those circuits. But it does not say whether you need to use one of them, or two of them, or more of them.
 
Re: Poor design choice

Charlie your post was fine. :)

I know when it's time to re-think my position, but all things have inertia to overcome. :p
 
Re: Poor design choice

Allright I'm confused. All I want to know is, does two circuits for the kitchen counters and one circuit (separate) for the dining room cover me?? :confused:
 
Re: Poor design choice

Originally posted by tedge:
Allright I'm confused. All I want to know is, does two circuits for the kitchen counters and one circuit (separate) for the dining room cover me?? :confused:
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Two for the counter, either or both for the dining room. Separate circuit for dining room if you want.
 
Re: Poor design choice

Originally posted by charlie b:
Do see a difference between these two:
</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">two or more circuits</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">the two or more circuits</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I do.
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Me too. Bob, consider this comical yet relevant example along Charlie's lines:

Commodores
vs.
The Commodores.

If you say "I'm going to go to the theatre to watch commodores," then you're going to a theater to watch some guys who dropped out before they made it to "admiral." Lord knows what they do on stage.

If you say "I'm going to go to the theatre to watch the Commodores" then you might see Lionel Ritchie.

I didn't see it until Charlie pointed it out, but the "the" is very important. :D
 
Re: Poor design choice

The only comment I'll add here is this. Even though the minimum requirements are only two circuits if one really considers what these will be servicing it's a better design to break it up a little more as mdshunk suggests.

Hey, any highend home deserves many, many home runs. For 13 countertop receptacles, I'd have had about 4 home runs in accordance with my usual custom. Fridge, disposer, microwave, dishwasher each also get a home run when I'm doing the ruff. It wouldn't be unusual for me to have 8 or 10 120 volt home runs in a higher end kitchen. Seems silly seeing the homeowner drop 10 grand on granite countertops and have the electrician skimp a few hundred bucks on a few more home runs.
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When you consider the types of appliances likely to be used, it only makes sense to have fewer receptacles per circuit, especially when it comes to refrigerators as it would be a real disappointment to find out later that the circuit overloaded and everything is now spoiled.

Bob
 
Re: Poor design choice

Originally posted by southernboys:
[QB] . In the kitchen are two 20a gifi circuits which is fine. On one he has the refridge and dining room as well as one other kitchen counter plug. ]

I'd never put the fridge on a GFI......that's asking for trouble.
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Re: Poor design choice

Originally posted by m73214:
I'd never put the fridge on a GFI......that's asking for trouble.
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I take it you do not work in any non-dwelling kitchens? :)

All 15 and 20 amp 120 volt receptacles in Non-dwelling kitchens require GFCI protection, no exceptions.

Also all vending machines now require GFCI protection including refrigerated ones.
 
Re: Poor design choice

So you are saying that in all kitchens that aren't dwelling kitchens, all recepacles are required to be GFI protected? Why would anyone want a fridge or freezer on a GFI? Is the vending machine requirement new to 2005?
 
Re: Poor design choice

Originally posted by m73214:
So you are saying that in all kitchens that aren't dwelling kitchens, all receptacles are required to be GFI protected?
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Yes.

Originally posted by m73214:
Why would anyone want a fridge or freezer on a GFI?
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Because some worker(s) had died being electrocuted from these items.


Originally posted by m73214:
Is the vending machine requirement new to 2005?
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Yes.

But it only effects electricians feeding older machines, new machines are required to have internal GFCIs.
 
Re: Poor design choice

In every jurisdiction I have ever worked in there were 2 options available to DR receptacle circuits. 1)- Feed the Dr recepts from one of the (2) SA circuits or(2)-Put all DR recepts on a dedicated circuit which can feed no other recepts except those located in the kitchen. I think by definition the DR recepts must be on a SA circuit and if that circuit happens to be a 3rd SA circuit, so what? I think the intent of the code was to not have a GP receptacle/lighting circuit serving a DR where portable appliances are likely to be utilized. I may be wrong but I don't think so. What other logic would there be behind requiring the DR circuit to be on a SA circuit?
 
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