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rattus said:
First correct answer although I prefer to use negative signs.

In engineerin' skool they always told us to use positive phase angles.

Just a preference I guess... just like the preference of some considering one leg of a 120/240 CT being 180 degrees out of phase with the other...
 
rattus said:
Two CT transformers fed by two generators and with the CTs connected.

Based on your written description, reference books I have seen call this a 2-Phase 5-Wire system.

I have never heard of 4-phase star, I would be interested to hear more about it.
 
I received my PM after Rattus had posted the correct answer, sorry Rattus. I think it should have been fairly intuitive to many. As far as positive angles, I would say from a mathematical point of view that 270 = -90, however I have to go with Rattus in that -90 to me is more descriptive. Actually I would prefer to say that V2 lags V1 by 90 deg, V3 lags V1 by 180, and V4 lags V1 by 270 deg. On a phasor diagram this seems more practical.

But then, I have always said that on a 120/240V system, V1 is 180 deg out of phase with V2 (assuming the same reference point during measuring was used)
 
rattus said:
Both are correct, although I prefer the negative signs.
I presume that you knew that I knew that. I also prefer the negative signs.

Now for a pop quiz of my own: What kind of noise annoys an oyster?
 
jim dungar said:
Based on your written description, reference books I have seen call this a 2-Phase 5-Wire system.

I have never heard of 4-phase star, I would be interested to hear more about it.

I work with 'high phase order' electric motors. Once you start talking about anything other than 3 phases, the naming conventions are not really well settled.

A star connected motor is one in which all of the 'phase circuits' are connected between a supply terminal and a common point. The 3 phase star is commonly called 'wye', where the phase circuits connect between your three supply terminals and the common.

A mesh connected system is one in which all of the 'phases circuits' are connected between two supply terminals, and a common point is not used. The 3 phase mesh connection is commonly called 'delta'.

The system that rattus described is a 'star' because you have that common point in the center.

At least one of the authors in the field would call the system that rattus described a '4 hemi phase system'. The reason is that 'phases' 180 degrees apart do not better define rotating field production, as discussed when we were talking about center tapped transformers and 180 degree phase difference versus inversion. This author would require phase angles of 0,45,90,135 (or others better balanced) to call the system a '4 phase system'.

In the systems that I work with, we regularly have physically separate inverter outputs, each with its own electronically synthesized and electronically adjustable phase angle, set up to operate with a 180 degree phase difference. For example, the machine that I am testing now has 18 separate inverter output terminals, at 0,20,...180,200,220,...320,340 degree relative phase. I call that an 18 phase machine, and thus I would call the system that rattus described a 4 phase system.

A motor supplied using 2 phase 5 wire has exactly the same number of 'pole-phase groups' as a motor supplied using 2 phase 3 wire. There is a benefit: for the same 'phase' voltage relative to the grounded conductor, the 5 wire system is more balanced, and thus can deliver the same amount of power with less current flow on the grounded conductor.

A system that we've discussed for powering computers is a transformer bank that has a delta connected primary, but where all three secondary coils are _center tapped_ single phase secondaries, where the center taps are grounded and the secondary 'end terminals' are separate ungrounded terminals. This system provides _six_ separate ungrounded terminals, with phase angles 0,60,120,180,240,300. Some would call this a six phase system, some would call it a three phase system, one a 6 hemi-phase system, and most of us 3 separate single phase systems. The idea was to design a system that uses common components without 'super neutrals' to deal with triplen harmonic issues.

-Jon
 
jim dungar said:
Based on your written description, reference books I have seen call this a 2-Phase 5-Wire system.

I had a 2 pole 6 wire clothes dryer in the back of my house once...
It was solar powered.
 
More than preference:

More than preference:

wasasparky said:
In engineerin' skool they always told us to use positive phase angles.

Just a preference I guess... just like the preference of some considering one leg of a 120/240 CT being 180 degrees out of phase with the other...

It is more than preference. L1 and L2 are "nodes" in a circuit, and the "node voltages", V1 and V2 must be measured relative to a reference, and the logical choice of that reference is the neutral.

Now, if you think of V1 and V2 as magnitudes only, there are no phase angles to argue about, and you can say |V1| + |V2| = 240V. That is what most do because it is easy and correct.
 
Wrong Box:

Wrong Box:

Oops! Opened the wrong box. The second box contains 4 alternators running on a common shaft. Does that make any difference?
 
Agenda:

Agenda:

By now, all should realize that I had an ulterior motive in this thread. I wanted to demonstrate that several of our esteemed members believe it is an acceptable, even standard practice to specify the neutral as a common reference. By doing so the phasor sums of the phase to neutral or line to neutral voltages are zero.

In the single-phase case, this means that the voltages on L1 and L2 are separated by 180 degrees. This does not in any way imply that we suddenly have a 2-ph system!

Furthermore, I wanted to demonstrate that the source of the voltages is immaterial. The inner workings of a transformer is of no importance here. What you see is what you get!

Thanks to all for their responses.
 
charlie b said:
Now for a pop quiz of my own: What kind of noise annoys an oyster?

A noisy noise annoys an oyster?

But, What kind of a noise annoys an oyster when an oyster's in a stew?
by Crumit & Curtis
as sung by Frank Crumit.
 
Ill bite

Ill bite

charlie b said:

I presume that you knew that I knew that. I also prefer the negative signs.

Now for a pop quiz of my own: What kind of noise annoys an oyster?
What kind of noise annots an oyster?? Pearl Jam??
 
Thought I had answered this one already:

Thought I had answered this one already:

jim dungar said:
Based on your written description, reference books I have seen call this a 2-Phase 5-Wire system.

I have never heard of 4-phase star, I would be interested to hear more about it.

Jim, I think it is the same animal. A rose by any other name smells just as sweet. As I said, I have only seen this in books.
 
I see the reason I think:

I see the reason I think:

Just looked at some buck-boost diagrams, and the secondaries are either in series or in parallel with no neutral. In these cases one would define the secondary voltages in such a way that they are in phase. This I think is the reason some are adamant that the secondary voltages are in phase.

However, if a neutral is present, it is moreorless standard practice to define the secondary voltages relative to that neutral. Same for the 120/240 case.

This little post doesn't change anything, but I think it explains the strong resistance to the out of phase argument.

R.I.P.
 
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