Portable Genny used as SDS

[zbang]

IMHO-
Generator is the SDS, it has a bonding jumper, might have GES (which is arguable).

Panel is (loosely) utilization requirement, never a bonding jumper. Whether it has a GES is also arguable. (At least, none of the UL listed temp power gear I have has a jumper.)

End utilization equipment, doesn't need a GES, but that won't hurt anything.

As long as all the grounding electrodes are tied to the same grounding system, I don't see a problem.

 

[Smart $]

I see 'cord and plug connected equipment' to be a type of equipment, which is specified, as opposed to any equipment powered through the receptacles mounted on the generator.

This is why I am looking for a written definition.

My feeling is that in order to be 'cord and plug connected equipment' it has to be designed and manufactured that way. I don't see a breaker as being cord and plug connected equipment.

The type of equipment you are referring to is defined in the code as "utilization equipment". I would agree with you if the subsection used this term instead of the more general version.

 

[SG-1]

OK,

4) Ground generator and configure entrance panel like a sub panel.

Thanks!

Agreed, I like this solution the best. I think it is the safest way.

 

[LEO2854]

Agreed, I like this solution the best. I think it is the safest way.

20101004-00:22 EDT
What about 250.34(A) Portable Generators.
The frame of a portable Generator shall not be required to be connected to a Grounding Electrode as defind in 250.52 for system supplyed by the Generator.
(1)the genorator supplies only equiment mounted on the generator cord- and- plug-connected equipment through recptacals mounted on the generator or both and
(2) the normally non-current-carring metal parts of equipment grounding conductor terminals of the recptacles are connected to the frame of the generator frame.

 

[Smart $]

20101004-00:22 EDT
What about 250.34(A) Portable Generators.
The frame of a portable Generator shall not be required to be connected to a Grounding Electrode as defind in 250.52 for system supplyed by the Generator.
(1)the genorator supplies only equiment mounted on the generator cord- and- plug-connected equipment through recptacals mounted on the generator or both and
(2) the normally non-current-carring metal parts of equipment grounding conductor terminals of the recptacles are connected to the frame of the generator frame.

Already discussed, in a way. However, 250.34(A) only says a grounding electrode is not required. It doesn't say you can't connect a grounding electrode.

 

[SG-1]

20101004-00:22 EDT
What about 250.34(A) Portable Generators.
The frame of a portable Generator shall not be required to be connected to a Grounding Electrode as defind in 250.52 for system supplyed by the Generator.
(1)the genorator supplies only equiment mounted on the generator cord- and- plug-connected equipment through recptacals mounted on the generator or both and
(2) the normally non-current-carring metal parts of equipment grounding conductor terminals of the recptacles are connected to the frame of the generator frame.

It does not meet 250.34(A)1, unless a house is a cord & plug connected device.

The other option is to run this domicile ungrounded. This appears to be a permanent installation.

 

[Smart $]

It does not meet 250.34(A)1, unless a house is a cord & plug connected device.

The other option is to run this domicile ungrounded. This appears to be a permanent installation.

Where does 250.34(A)(1) say cord-and-plug-connected device?

I'll yield to a house not being a device, but I have to ask how does one terminate an electrical cord to a house???

 

[SG-1]

Where does 250.34(A)(1) say cord-and-plug-connected device?

I'll yield to a house not being a device, but I have to ask how does one terminate an electrical cord to a house???

My Bad, equipment, not device. :grin:

You can't make me type plug...:roll: So I say very carefully.

I still hold that a house is not cord & plug connected equipment. Besides this one is hard wired, well half hard wired. Ok, so maybe quasi-cord & plug connected.

Are you using your Jedi mind tricks on me ?

 

[ceb58]

The type of equipment you are referring to is defined in the code as "utilization equipment". I would agree with you if the subsection used this term instead of the more general version.

I think the wording in 250.34 (A) (1) may not be crystal clear but the spirit of the code is. " cord and plug equipment THROUGH receptacles".
I take it to mean any equipment that receives its power by way of cord and plug that is installed on listed equipment

Where does 250.34(A)(1) say cord-and-plug-connected device?

I'll yield to a house not being a device, but I have to ask how does one terminate an electrical cord to a house???

The same way you terminate SE cable. Think about it. When we or the poco brings in the service conductors and terminates them in the meter base all we are doing is hooking it up to a generator. Some where down the line is a big a** generator supplying power to the grid.

 

[Smart $]

I think the wording in 250.34 (A) (1) may not be crystal clear but the spirit of the code is. " cord and plug equipment THROUGH receptacles".
I take it to mean any equipment that receives its power by way of cord and plug that is installed on listed equipment

The code is only foggy if it doesn't say what you think or want it to say.

We're still at odds in that a panelboard, loadcenter, or similar is [typically] listed equipment. What you want it to say is listed equipment intended by the manufacturer to be cord-and-plug connected... but the code doesn't say that, even using its own defined or commonplace terminology... not even close.

The same way you terminate SE cable. Think about it. When we or the poco brings in the service conductors and terminates them in the meter base all we are doing is hooking it up to a generator. Some where down the line is a big a** generator supplying power to the grid.

My question/comment was rhetorical and tongue-in-cheek, in that a "house" is not electrical equipment.

 

[Smart $]

My Bad, equipment, not device. :grin:

You can't make me type plug...:roll: So I say very carefully.

I still hold that a house is not cord & plug connected equipment. Besides this one is hard wired, well half hard wired. Ok, so maybe quasi-cord & plug connected.

Are you using your Jedi mind tricks on me ?

The force is upon you

The cord is connected to equipment on one end and a plug on the other, the latter of which is plugged into a recptacle on the generator. I don't see how anyone can say, by code "chapter and verse", the generator is not supplying cord-and-plug-connected equipment.

 

[tallgirl]

Where does 250.34(A)(1) say cord-and-plug-connected device?

I'll yield to a house not being a device, but I have to ask how does one terminate an electrical cord to a house???

The HOUSE should have a proper generator connection receptacle with a transfer switch between the non-existent PoCo connection and said generator connection receptacle. It's a 4KW genny, so that would best be either L14-30 (my suggestion) or L14-20 (bad idea).

The HOUSE should also have a battery-based inverter system so the generator can be turned off. And then add some solar panels. And maybe a birdy.

 

[tallgirl]

It does not meet 250.34(A)1, unless a house is a cord & plug connected device.

The other option is to run this domicile ungrounded. This appears to be a permanent installation.

Bad idea. Stuff leaks and if the stuff leaks into the ground, it might wind up a grounded system anyway. Besides, 250.35.

And I disagree with not meeting 250.34(A)1. The choices are "equipment" or "cord and plug connected equipment". There is no "not equipment" choice.

 

[SG-1]

Bad idea. Stuff leaks and if the stuff leaks into the ground, it might wind up a grounded system anyway. Besides, 250.35.

And I disagree with not meeting 250.34(A)1. The choices are "equipment" or "cord and plug connected equipment". There is no "not equipment" choice.

I was not advocating ungrounded or I would have suggested a ground fault detection system. :grin:

The choice is actually equipment mounted on the generator or cord & plug connected equipment through receptacles mounted on the generator.

A dwelling does not meet 250.34(A)1. Dwelling does not equal equipment. Therefore you must ground the generator.

 

[SG-1]

The force is upon you

The cord is connected to equipment on one end and a plug on the other, the latter of which is plugged into a recptacle on the generator. I don't see how anyone can say, by code "chapter and verse", the generator is not supplying cord-and-plug-connected equipment.

Here is my hang up.
I cannot equate a dwelling to cord & plug connected equipment.

 

[Smart $]

The HOUSE should have a proper generator connection receptacle with a transfer switch between the non-existent PoCo connection and said generator connection receptacle. It's a 4KW genny, so that would best be either L14-30 (my suggestion) or L14-20 (bad idea).

The HOUSE should also have a battery-based inverter system so the generator can be turned off. And then add some solar panels. And maybe a birdy.

Should have and required to have can be worlds apart...

 

[Smart $]

Here is my hang up.
I cannot equate a dwelling to cord & plug connected equipment.

Even when you connect a service, it is not to the dwelling, it is to electrical service equipment.

Note service-rated equipment is not limited to service duty only. It can be used for SDS systems, too. Now minus the service, the dwelling still has electrical equipment. Supply that equipment with an electrical cord with plug on its other end, and we have cord-and-plug-connected equipment. Code compliant? Yes.

 

[SG-1]

Even when you connect a service, it is not to the dwelling, it is to electrical service equipment.

Note service-rated equipment is not limited to service duty only. It can be used for SDS systems, too. Now minus the service, the dwelling still has electrical equipment. Supply that equipment with an electrical cord with plug on its other end, and we have cord-and-plug-connected equipment. Code compliant? Yes.

Is this discussion still about operating the genny ungrounded per 250.34(A)1 ?

If the radio & lamp are plugged into a receptical that is not generator mounted ( premises wiring ) then grounding the genny is required.

 

[ceb58]

My $0.02 worth is they are connecting the gen. to the premise wireing via a cord to a panel. I wouldn't consider it cord and plug connected. 250.34 (A) (1) " cord and plug-connected equipment through receptacles mounted on the generator"

I will still stand by this.



IMHO I would ground the gen. and separate the G-N bond in the panel.
You can pretend the gen. is the main panel since it has the first OCP the panel on the building would be a sub panel

And this also

 

[Smart $]

Is this discussion still about operating the genny ungrounded per 250.34(A)1 ?

If the radio & lamp are plugged into a receptical that is not generator mounted ( premises wiring ) then grounding the genny is required.

The gennie is grounded. As I said earlier, the SDS system starts at the plug. An SDS system operating as such is required to be grounded per other sections of Article 250. Grounding can be achieved by a couple different methods: a GES bonded to the grounded conductor at the main panel or at the gennie. Take your pick.

All I have been saying is that the gennie is not required to be grounded, not that it can't be grounded.