Possible damaged Molded case breaker

[iwire]

?? perhaps you didnt see, post #3 was not mine. :happysad:.

post #17 is not my quote....... :thumbsup:

you missed capt obvious

I did not change a word you have posted. The fact you do not know how to quote another person and indicate who said it is not my problem.

Take care FZ.

 

[ptonsparky]

Warranty nothing.

If customer will not replace or pay for testing, it is on his/her head. I would put that in writing.

Those type of repairs don't even get a tail light warranty and the customer is informed before I leave.

 

[dmxtothemax]

The concern that I would have is

The point is mute
If the customer will not take your advise,
and pay for a new breaker
Then there is not much more you can do
Now it's on his head should any problems arise.

:thumbsup:

 

[templdl]

The point is mute
If the customer will not take your advise,
and pay for a new breaker
Then there is not much more you can do
Now it's on his head should any problems arise.

:thumbsup:

You would like to think that it would make sense.

 

[Jraef]

I like the term "tail light warranty" by the way. I've never heard that one, but I take it to mean, "the warranty lasts for as long as you can still see my tail lights when I leave". I'll have to remember that one. :thumbsup:

"Reconditioned" used breakers, when discussing molded case circuit breakers where the case is factory sealed, often just means it was wiped clean of the dust and the char marks were removed. Some places do a FOP test, others just do a continuity check and call it good. Very few of them do a current injection test of the trip elements. That costs time and money, including the cost of a test set. Of the dozen or so breaker brokers I've dealt with over the years, only one of them even had the ability to do trip testing, and they did it for an added fee, which on MCCBs under 600A often was more than they charged for the breaker.

 

[FionaZuppa]

Of the dozen or so breaker brokers I've dealt with over the years, only one of them even had the ability to do trip testing, and they did it for an added fee, which on MCCBs under 600A often was more than they charged for the breaker.

and the results of such test was what? a pass or fail?

do you generally agree that a refurb from a reputable place is better than the item that is scorched? isnt this about the same as refurb auto parts? refurb auto parts will have some basic tests (sometimes) but will not typically be put through the OEM tests. new auto parts will typically meet or exceed OEM specs which means they have to be tested (usually by sampling).

 

[templdl]

I like the term "tail light warranty" by the way. I've never heard that one, but I take it to mean, "the warranty lasts for as long as you can still see my tail lights when I leave". I'll have to remember that one. :thumbsup:

"Reconditioned" used breakers, when discussing molded case circuit breakers where the case is factory sealed, often just means it was wiped clean of the dust and the char marks were removed. Some places do a FOP test, others just do a continuity check and call it good. Very few of them do a current injection test of the trip elements. That costs time and money, including the cost of a test set. Of the dozen or so breaker brokers I've dealt with over the years, only one of them even had the ability to do trip testing, and they did it for an added fee, which on MCCBs under 600A often was more than they charged for the breaker.

As I mentioned previously the procedure for testing breakers in the field is NEMA AB4. I know of very few OEMs that have the test e we uipment to replicate the actusl calibration testing, both thermal and magnetic, of factory tedting breakers. That test equipment is extremely expensive, equipment that is not required when testing per NEMA AB4.
Doing tests per NEMA AB4 does not check breaker calibration but is a test to confirm that a breaker will operated within a give parameter.

 

[ATSman]

NETA Specs

NETA Specs

Another reference:

 

[Sierrasparky]

OK let's say I gave or sold the piece of junk I took out to a so called PEARL recycler ? I had already cleaned the blueing from the lug and breaker tab, tightened the lug. There is no way to open the thing up as it is sealed unlike some large breakers.

How are those tests going to show the potential damage that this breaker sustained?

Someone else will pay good money for the junk I took out.,

 

[FionaZuppa]

How are those tests going to show the potential damage that this breaker sustained?

if the nema AB4 field tests all show PASS results, do we need to worry about potential damage. there is really no such thing as potential damage, its either damaged or its not. i guess you could argue potential failure due to existing damage or wear?

maybe these field tests will give some assurance
http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@electrical/documents/content/1063170921517.pdf

 

[templdl]

if the nema AB4 field tests all show PASS results, do we need to worry about potential damage. there is really no such thing as potential damage, its either damaged or its not. i guess you could argue potential failure due to existing damage or wear?

maybe these field tests will give some assurance
http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@electrical/documents/content/1063170921517.pdf

Yes, that is the procedure a manufacturer accepts for field testing.
The key words are 'some assistance' as the rest is dependent upon your professionl observations and judgement. Even smelling a breaker may give some indication of posible internal damage. But taking a look at the tests that are required by UL489 are quite stenuos which would indicate just how robust molded case breakers are. If the breaker passes the NEMA AB4 tedting procedure would there be any addition evaluation that would lead one to conclude that the breaker should be removed from service and replaced?

 

[templdl]

if the nema AB4 field tests all show PASS results, do we need to worry about potential damage. there is really no such thing as potential damage, its either damaged or its not. i guess you could argue potential failure due to existing damage or wear?

maybe these field tests will give some assurance
http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@electrical/documents/content/1063170921517.pdf

Yes, that is the procedure a manufacturer accepts for field testing. I don't believe testing according to NETA testing ie anything special as NETA to my knowledge just packages acceptable existing testing standards, packaging them, and that being s member of NETA should give assurance that these testing standards are known and applied.
The key words are 'some assurance' as the rest is dependent upon our professionl observations and judgement. Even smelling a breaker often can give some indication of posible internal damage. But taking a look at the tests that are required by UL489 are quite strenuous which would indicate just how robust molded case breakers are. UL489 basically kicks their butts good, they take a beating and keep on 'ticking'. If the breaker passes the NEMA AB4 testing procedure would there be any addition evaluation that would lead one to conclude that the breaker should be removed from service and replaced?

 

[Jraef]

OK let's say I gave or sold the piece of junk I took out to a so called PEARL recycler ? I had already cleaned the blueing from the lug and breaker tab, tightened the lug. There is no way to open the thing up as it is sealed unlike some large breakers.

How are those tests going to show the potential damage that this breaker sustained?

Someone else will pay good money for the junk I took out.,

Exactly the point. There is no way of knowing, short of testing.

And to that issue:

Another reference:

From that spec:

5. Determine long-time pickup and delay by primary current injection.
6. Determine short-time pickup and delay by primary current injection.
7. Determine ground-fault pickup delay by primary current injection.
8. Determine instantaneous pickup current by primary injection.

The same is basically true of the NEMA AB-4 procedure, and there's the rub. Like I said, most of the breaker recyclers don't even OWN the equipment to perform a current injection test. PEARL does NOT require them to do current injection testing. It ENCOURAGES them, but they can display their PEARL logo and do nothing more than wipe off the dust and do a continuity test.

From their (PEARL's) website:

... PEARL's Reconditioning Standards include additional detail regarding suggested technician qualifications and the importance of manufacturer specifications for equipment performance, as well as expanded use of electrical industry terminology used by other electrical industry organizations, including IEEE and NETA.

It all sounds good and the entire statement taken as a whole gives people the warm fuzzies they are looking for. But I'm telling you, many of the PEARL members I have had dealings with take that slight term "suggested" to the greatest extent possible, and MOST of the cheap breakers you find on Fleabay are NOT coming from PEARL members anyway. Remember, this was about Sierrasparky's customer wanting to go buy a breaker off of eBay for 1/2 what he had found for them. THAT's where the risk lies.