Possible miswire of dual fuel range, 10-2 vs 10-3 ??

[kwired]

I normally run whatever I'm getting paid to run. The difference between installing a 120V receptacle for a gas range and running a 30-40 A range circuit can be a little bit of money.


Sounds like this guy cheated himself out a bit of money by not keeping track of what he was supposed to be running.

That is pretty much it, now trying to find an easy way out of what was done but is not right. If one knows you won't need a neutral in the circuit, you can get away with not running one. A majority of ranges out there will need a neutral and many run a neutral regardless if the specific range being used initially requires one or not. I have seen some with typical three wire supply terminal board and bonding jumper from neutral to appliance frame - no other conductors landed on the neutral which means it doesn't utilize a neutral but still has a neutral terminal. I have still landed a 4 wire supply cord on such ranges though the neutral isn't actually utilized. Probably could have installed a 6-50 cord on them and technically am NEC compliant, but I put the 14-50 on anyway because it is what is common for a range. Guy installing the next range can still fail to remove the bonding jumper and screw the whole thing up, but that is not my problem.

I work in atlanta, and don't leave that that extra bit of wire at the boxes. I also hardly ever run into it. And i do a lot of residential service work.

It seems unnecessary to me. Im not knocking it, to each his own in this industry. And its also not a penny pinching thing for me. Its not that much extra romex in the end. I just haven't found that its to mine or any future electricians advantage to leave the extra bit of wire at every box. Sure it could come in handy 15 years later, but i feel like i have to draw the line somewhere.

I will make an effort to not stuff the holes in my top and bottom plates full though. I've found having a bit of extra room to get my wire into an existing wall without drilling a new hole is a small win when I'm adding an outlet, or running a new switch leg into the ceiling.

This would be an interesting topic to start. "Things we do cause we're nice electricians and want to help out the next guy when he has to deal with our work in the future"

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I usually future proof things more so for in case I am that next guy and not so much for others Leaving such extra loop of cable isn't something I ordinarily do as a general rule though, only for certain things where I may suspect I might need it for a specific reason.

That little wire loop is not for future electricians, it is for you WHEN the drywaller RotoZips the inside of your box. Yeah they, they make metal protection plates for this, but it is more cost and labor to install and remove. Great topic idea though.

The way that I read 334.30 on stapling Romex, the staple has to be within 12 in of the box. A small loop is not against code, and I believe that there has been CMP substantiation of this, shooting down amendments to change this code section.

JFletcher kind of addressed what I was going to say here, see below.

Use deep boxes and make sure everything is pushed into the box as far as possible, and the cut wires problem largely goes away.

That is biggest key, get conductors away from front inch or so of the box, usually not that hard to do, even if you don't strip sheath off NM cables. "S" bend them when you push them in, that way if they do get nicked it is going to be near the cut end. If you are one that just curls them to tuck them in, that rotary zip ding will end up leaving you only two inches or so of conductor in the box if you were to cut off the damaged part nearly every time.

Splitting hairs.
Was it that the neutral could be used as the ground or the ground could be used as the neutral ??

It was the "grounded conductor" that could be used for equipment grounding purposes at specific appliances - ranges and clothes dryers.

You quoted the code section in my post. The relevant part of 334.30 is "...and within 300mm (12 in.) of every outlet box..."

As I read that section, as long as there is a staple within 12 in* of the box, you're good.

As you wrote, the other reason for the loop is for your own mistakes... or that of a green helpers.

*Nonmetallic cable going into a single gang clampless box must be stapled within 8in of said box, exception to 314.17 (C).

I really don't know what to say about 12 inches from box or 12 inch of cable, but that 8 inch rule is definitely different in that the box has no clamp and that 8 inch rule is what is securing the cable instead of a clamp in the box.

In the US, Ranges, Ovens, and Cooktops are set up to be installed with 120/240VAC circuits. They need both. Some european built machines, such as Bosch Dryers, don't use the Neutral. I pin it to the example my instructor told our class. "The Code says a switch is needed light in every room, but doesn't say you can put every switch inside the garage."

I mentined above I have seen US ranges that have a neutral terminal but don't actually have any neutral load.

Your last sentence not quite correct. Most rooms will need a wall switch controlled lighting outlet. Code does not state where that switch must be located. Other than stairways over six risers (I think it is six) where you must have a switch at each level, or crawlspaces that require illumination and a switch at the entrance to the space - you can compliantly put every required wall switch all in one big bank of switches at almost any location you desire, including in the garage. Might not be convenient to have to go to the garage on grade level to turn off your third floor bedroom light before you go to bed, but NEC allows it.

 

[D Hollenbeck]

Installation of this dual fuel range

Installation of this dual fuel range

Just observing the dilemma for the home owner; had the same concerns when my Bosh d/f was installed. The electrical installation sheet called for 30 amp breaker (6300 watts load). Old install was for a dual oven with 50 amp breaker, 3 cond. aluminum, direct wire to appliance. That had to go.
I talked to the installer of the range (contracted by the seller) and they did a pre inspection to be certain the gas and electrical was correct to avoid possibly wasting a trip... Installer said he only uses 50amp range cords for ranges regardless of load. So i needed a 14-50R to make this work. So looked at parts in HomeDepot and didn't understand how a #10 would properly secure under the clamps; seemed too small to be reliable even though rating said it was ok. So told rough in to put in 8/3 w/g which he said was overdone, but said a 30a breaker set would take the #8. "It is your money."
So it's 14-50p to 14-50r, with#8 to panel and 30amp breaker.
The installer essentially drove this decision for my paying more, because he wouldn't use a 4 wire dryer (30a) cord. Prob paranoid about #10 being too physically small, but ok for future if want to revert to std range and change only breaker.