Possible Pattern w/ 110.14(C) and 310.15(B) ... Check My Math, What Do You Think?

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Jerramundi

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Seems to be an interesting pattern emerging when working with 110.14(C) Term. Temp. Ratings, 310.15(B), and Derating by Number of CCC's.

Seems to be that, if you're working with 60*C terminations and you have to derate due to the number of CCC's... and still want to be free to pull any number of wires that you want... that your best bet is to derate from the 60*C column. Essentially, that you should derate from the same column as the term. temp. rating, otherwise you're going to face restrictions with the number of wires that you can pull and still meet the requirements of both 110.14(C) and 310.15(B).

I'm somewhat concerned that when applying these particular variables and derating from the 90*C column w/ 60*C term. temp. ratings, that you seem to be "required" to pull 7-9 CCC's. That to me seems like it might be indicative of a problem with either my math or my interpretation of the relevant code sections.

So, if there is something wrong with my math or interpretation of the relevant code sections, PLEASE let me know.
I want someone to catch it and correct me so that I can be certain I'm doing this correctly... and thus, I share, hopefully to some mutual benefit.

I should be clear that I've FAR from confirmed this as a "pattern." This is dependent on very specific variables such as a set 60*C term. temp. rating and a set ambient temperature... but still, I found it interesting.

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I only looked at the upper left corner of your chart, but there is no violation of 310.15(B) in your example. The circuit ampacity is the lesser of the two calculations (termination vs in the conduit).

Cheers, Wayne
 
I only looked at the upper left corner of your chart, but there is no violation of 310.15(B) in your example. The circuit ampacity is the lesser of the two calculations (termination vs in the conduit).

Cheers, Wayne
Can you elaborate and explain with specific wording from relevant code sections, please?
 
There is no violation in using a conductor larger than required. The only violation for the three you are showing with a red X would be if you used an OCPD greater than 30 amps.

You always apply the ampacity adjustment and/or correction factors to the column that matches the temperature rating of the conductor, then you make sure that your OCPD does not exceed the 60°C ampacity if the adjusted and corrected ampacity is greater than what is in the 60°C column, or, where the adjusted and corrected ampacity is less then the 60°C, that becomes the ampacity for the OCPD, but the provisions of 240.4(B) may apply.
 
I have to say that I don't fully understand your premise but from your charts it appears you are saying there is a problem where the adjusted ampacity exceeds the OCP rating. If so, that is not the case. With 60° terminations the adjusted anpacity can be any number equal or above the 60° rating.
You can use a #2 on a 30 am p circuit.

(posted along with don)
 
If I may attempt to convey my understanding of these relevant code sections, while also remaining open to the possibility that I have misinterpreted these codes, I will respond to each of you (i.e. @wwhitney, @don_resqcapt19, @augie47) before someone jumps in and I don't get a chance to address this fully.
 
If I may attempt to convey my understanding of these relevant code sections, while also remaining open to the possibility that I have misinterpreted these codes, I will respond to each of you (i.e. @wwhitney, @don_resqcapt19, @augie47) before someone jumps in and I don't get a chance to address this fully.
There is no need to respond to me as I will not make any change in my statement on this issue...You have said what you want to say, and I have said what I want to say...no need for any additional discussion between us.
 
Let me begin this response by saying, I'm merely giving my interpretation of the code in hopes of reaching a solid understanding. None of this commentary is meant to demean anyone. My hope is that, if I provide my interpretation, and I do happen to be wrong, that someone can point out where/how I'm looking at it incorrectly and I can better my understanding of the code. If I'm correct about something, then we can discuss that and learn that way. Either way, we learn. That's how academia works and the code is academic.
 
To some degree all of the posts by all of us are interpretations.
That said, with some of the folks, like don, you can pretty well put money on their answers :)
I feel you presented your case fairly well and think it's far off base but you can certainly give it another shot here and possibly get some additional opinions,
 
To some degree all of the posts by all of us are interpretations.
That said, with some of the folks, like don, you can pretty well put money on their answers :)
I feel you presented your case fairly well and think it's far off base but you can certainly give it another shot here and possibly get some additional opinions,
Here's where the disconnect is. You all seem to think I'm trying to say "Don is wrong." I'm not.

But I have to be able to read the actual text of the code and come to the same conclusion as him, which is why I'm working on posting my interpretation of it. So that if I am indeed reading it incorrectly, someone can point out where EXACTLY I'm reading it wrong (i.e. you read THIS EXPLICIT sentence this way, when it should be read THIS way).

Devoid of that explicitly, I'm effectively just downloading answers off the internet, which is not acceptable to me. The internet can serve as a valid research tool, but it has to be confirmed with the actual text of the code. And if I can come to the same conclusion as Don, THEN we have successfully resolved the problem.
 
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which is why I'm working on posting my interpretation of it.
Just confirming that you are referring to an upcoming post, to which I'm happy to respond, rather than your OP. As I don't see anything further to respond to in the OP.

Also, it's worth noting that the method that we are all describing is certainly the intended method. The text in various parts of the NEC may not express that as clearly as it could. So you are probably getting tripped up by some ambiguous wording.

Cheers, Wayne
 
You need to differentiate Art 310 and Art 240 and 110.14.
310 deals with ampacity which is the amount of current a conductor can carry without exceeding it's temperature rating.
310.15(B) states the conductor's ampacity {60°,75°,and 90° for conductors in 310.15(B)(16)} have to be adjusted for conduit fill and ambient
Once those adjustments are made (base on the conductor temp rating and the Tables) that is your conductors amapcity.
The load must not exceed that adjusted rating (210.19 for example)
There is nothing that prohibits you usimg a 2/0 on a 50 amp load.
Art 240 states you must select an overcurrent device to protect the conductor at that adjusted ampacity (there are exceptions such as motors)
Again, you can protect a 2/0 with a 20 amp breaker or possibly a 175 amp breaker depending on the amapcity determined by 310.15
240 also has some special stipulations for 14,12 & 10 noted in 310.15(B)(16) Table.
110.14 tells you that the temperature termination of the devices connected to/by the conductor msut be tsken into account and the conductor not operate at an ampacity greater than allowed by 110.14 ie: if you have a 75å device you can not use a conductor 90° rating.
(If our 2/0 had an ajdusted ampacity of 180 amps, you could not exceed 175 amp load if itb terminated on a 75° device.)
 
Here's where the disconnect is. You all seem to think I'm trying to say "Don is wrong." I'm not.

...
I don't care if you are saying I am wrong. All I said is that my reading of the section will not change no matter what you or anyone else posts about it and there is no reason for me to make any additional comment on the technical merit of your original post.
 
...The circuit ampacity is the lesser of the two calculations (termination vs in the conduit).
...That's what the first paragraph of 110.14(C) tells you...

Not sure how you get that from 110.14(C)....

It sounds to me like you're attempting to reference 310.15(A)(2) Selection of Ampacity when talking about different ampacities on a conductor and being required to utilize the lesser one, which I agree is relevant once reaching 310.15, but is not what 110.14(C) is directing us to do.

110.14(C) Temperature Limitations. The temperature rating associated with the ampacity of a conductor shall be selected and coordinated so as not to exceed the lowest temperature rating of any connected termination, conductor, or device....

My understanding, based on the text and Mike's instructional videos, is that the first half 110.14(C) is saying... if we have 60*C terminations, we have to select our conductors to be from the 60*C column (e.g. types TW, UF).

60*C termination = 60*C wire.... and what they are attempting to do, is to prevent the conductor from having an ampacity that would result in it heating up to a point where it could damage the termination, equipment. Theoretically, that if we place 20A on a #12 TW 60*C wire, it will heat up to 60*C and possibly damage the termination that is rated for 60*C.

However, I would wager that there realistically exists a buffer zone beyond what is allowed by 310.15(B)(16) (e.g. 20A on a #12 TW will not necessarily cause the conductor to reach 60*C exactly and damage equipment... but the code has set this limit and we have to abide by it for safety purposes even if said buffer zone exists, which I believe it must, otherwise, anytime anyone utilized the max allowable ampacity in 310.15(B)(16), the wire would be damaged.

Interpretation #2: This entire section is NOT saying anything about conductor selection, but is simply directing us to look at the temperature column of 310.15(B)(16) associated with the lowest temperature rating in the proverbial chain... with a lot of unnecessary verbal fluff.

110.14(C) …Conductors with temperature ratings higher than specified for terminations shall be permitted to be used for ampacity adjustment, correction, or both."

The latter part of 110.14(C) is giving us permission to utilize conductors with higher temperature ratings, such as 90*C wire, but it explicitly says for the [sole (implied)] purpose of "ampacity adjustment, correction, or both." The code is not necessarily, explicitly giving us permission to actually install a 90*C wire on a 60*C termination, not yet.

In context with the previous part of this section, the implication here is that we're going to install a 60*C wire on a 60*C termination, but that we can utilize the max allowable ampacity from the 90*C column for the [sole (implied)] purpose of "ampacity adjustment, correction, or both."

However, and I should be clear here that I understand the potential problem with this particular interpretation (but this is how it reads, IMO) because you CANNOT, I repeat CANNOT, just go derating from 40A on a #10 TW because you will likely end up with an ampacity that is greater than what the wire itself is rated for.

As with how the rest of this code functions, we have to combine several pieces together, there might be conflicting portions (in which case the most restrictive rule is king), and the later parts of this section as well as 310.15 are part of that equation.

Interpretation #2: The later part of this section is simply telling us that we can utilize a temperature column higher than the lowest rated component for the purposes of adjustment and correction.

Either interpretation implies that we can utilize a temperature column higher than that of the lowest in the proverbial chain for adjustment and correction.

110.14(C)(1) The determination of termination provisions of equipment shall be based on 110.14(C)(1)(a) or 110.14(C)(1)(b).
Unless the equipment is listed and marked otherwise, conductor ampacities used in determining equipment terminations provisions shall be based on Table 310.15(B)(16) as appropriately modified by 310.15(B)(7).

The first sentence here is a little tricky, IMO because of the word "provision" as it could mean either (1) "a thing supplied," which IMO is referring the conductor itself... or it could mean (2) "an amount," in which case it is simply setting a limit for how the terminations of equipment are to be utilized.

However, the second sentence, if taken in context with the first, makes it clear that we are talking about an ampacity limit which is being set and we are to utilize either 110.14(C)(1)(a) or 110.14(C)(1)(b) in combination 310.15(B)(16) to do so.

The part that trips me up is the "as appropriately modified by 310.15(B)(7) part because that's referring to services and feeders. The only explanation I can think of is that this section applies to all terminations, but when dealing with services and feeders, the rules of 310.15(B)(7) also apply.

Skipping 110.14(C)(1)(a) because it's just setting specific parameters for when it is to be applied, but this is the one I'm looking at here.

110.14(C)(1)(a)(2) Conductors with higher temperature ratings, provided the ampacity of such conductors is determined based on the 60*C ampacity of the conductor size used.

This is where we get permission to install a 90*C wire on a 60*C termination, but we still have to set the ampacity of that wire based on the 60*C column (i.e. we can install #10 THHN 90*C on a 60*C termination, but the ampacity is set at 30A from the 60*C column because the termination is rated at 60*C).

Basically, via 110.14(C), we're setting an ampacity limit in order to control the temperature at the point of termination in order to prevent the terminations from getting damaged by a wire whose ampacity results in a temperature that would exceed what the termination is rated for... by either using 60*C wire on a 60*C termination or by utilizing 90*C wire on a 60*C termination, but in either case, limiting its' ampacity to the 60*C column.

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In summation, we leave 110.14(C) with an ampacity limit.

So, in my example, we have 60*C terminations, but are utilizing #10 THHN, a 90*C wire, and setting the ampacity equal to that of the 60*C column, or 30A.

110.14(C) …Conductors with temperature ratings higher than specified for terminations shall be permitted to be used for ampacity adjustment, correction, or both."
310.15(B) ...The temperature correction and adjustment factors shall be permitted to be applied to the ampacity for the temperature rating of the conductor...

Per the second sentence of 110.14(C) and the first half of the first sentence of the second paragraph of 310.15(B), we can derate this wire from the 90*C column.

However, the second half of the first sentence of the second paragraph of 310.15(B) gives a condition to follow for that derating procedure.

310.15(B) ...if the corrected and adjusted ampacity does not exceed the ampacity for the temperature rating of the termination
in accordance with the provisions of 110.14(C).

So we've left 110.14(C) with an ampacity limit of 30A since the terminations are rated at 60*C, but we are now derating from the 90*C column since that is the temperature rating of the #10 THHN... but that final value has to be BELOW the initial value set by 110.14(C).

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The reason for this condition is that, if we derate from the 90*C column on 60*C terminations and end up with a final ampacity that would exceed what the termination is rated for, we will damage the termination, equipment.

Now, granted, per 240.4(D) Small Conductors, we are still required to put this wire on a 30A breaker, which determines the final overall rating of the branch circuit, but we are not allowed to just skip 110.14(C), 310.15(B) in determining our ampacity for the conductor and just say #10 = 30A, as most people tend to do in my experience, because there exists the possibility that, post derating, this conductor will have an allowable ampacity below that which is set by the OCPD... and could result in a wire that has an allowable ampacity of 25A, but someone puts a 28A total load on it, and the breaker does not trip because it is below 30A.

Really, my interpretation all comes down to how 110.14(C) and 310.15(B) work together... and it is conditional upon a limited situation in which we have 60*C terminals and attempting to utilize a 90*C wire while applying corrections and adjustments to the 90*C column.

Apologies for the length of this, but I had to parse out the actual text and give my thoughts so as to explain the OP. I will await your input and do my best to try and understand where, if anywhere, I have gone wrong.
 
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I guess I could have just said the following, but I got stuck on @wwhitney 's mention of 110.14(C), haha...

So we've left 110.14(C) with an ampacity limit of 30A since the terminations are rated at 60*C, but we are now derating from the 90*C column since that is the temperature rating of the #10 THHN... but that final value has to be BELOW the initial value set by 110.14(C), which makes sense if you think about it, because we cannot have an ampacity that would exceed what the termination is rated for post correction and adjustment.

That's how I'm reading it anyway... if you can parse what I've written and see where, if anywhere, I've gone wrong, and provide me with an explicit quote of the code and my interpretation, I'm more than happy to rethink my interpretation.
 
In general your interpretations #2 are how the parts of 110.14(C) are understood. In particular, in the first sentence, the whole point of the verbiage about "selection and coordination" is that you may (must) use an ampacity table column different (less than) the temperature rating of the insulation on the conductor. 110.14(C) (first paragraph) by itself in no way limits the use of higher rated insulation at an termination.

Remember that in a given set of conditions, changing just the insulation temperature rating isn't going to change the actual operating temperature of a conductor. [To first order, the different insulation material might conduct heat slightly differently.] So an interpretation of NEC language that would result in an allowable installation with 60C rated wire that would not be allowed with 75C or 90C rated wire is disqualified as absurd.

Also, you speak of the possibility of damage to 60C terminations from using 60C wire at its ampacity, but there is none. The 60C rating of the insulation and terminations means they will be undamaged at 60C, and the 60C ampacity means the wire will not exceed 60C (barring extreme thermal environments like operating the conductor in a vacuum, it's a rule not a law). So there should be no possibility of damage.

However, you raise an interesting point about the the sentence in 310.15(B) "The temperature correction and adjustment factors shall be permitted to be applied to the ampacity for the temperature if the corrected and adjusted ampacity does not exceed the ampacity for the temperature rating of the termination in accordance with the provisions of 110.14(C)." This is commonly understood to mean "if the 110.14(C) ampacity is lower, the overall ampacity is limited to that lower value." But it could be read as saying "if the 110.14(C) ampacity is lower, you need to go back and start your correction and adjustment again at a lower temperature column."

Cheers, Wayne
 
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So we've left 110.14(C) with an ampacity limit of 30A since the terminations are rated at 60*C, but we are now derating from the 90*C column since that is the temperature rating of the #10 THHN... but that final value has to be BELOW the initial value set by 110.14(C).....
No.

The final conductor ampacity is allowed to be higher than the terminations, in fact it cannot be less.
It is the current through the conductor that must be less than the terminal rating. This is achieved by selecting an OCPD with the appropriate rating, after temperature adjustments.

Using your logic, as I see it, we would never be allowed to use larger conductors to combat voltage drop.
 
In general your interpretations #2 are how the parts of 110.14(C) are understood.
Well, thank you for adding some support to the idea that my interpretation #2 is the correct one.

In particular, in the first sentence, the whole point of the verbiage about "selection and coordination" is that you may (must)...
I don't see how "selection and coordination" yields a "may (must)" scenario. "Selection and coordination," as I read it, are descriptive words of the action we're taking and nothing more.

Also, the word "may" is permissive where as "must" is obligatory, which I feel is something you already know... at least in everyday English it is, (but not so much in the code) so I'm not sure where you're writing "may (must)" the way you are.

However, if you're pointing this out to allude to the obligatory nature of the word "shall" in the code, I'm fully aware of that requirement and perhaps I should be using that word more when discussing the NEC. I fully understand its' implications in the code, I just don't normally speak or write that way, lol.

....use an ampacity table column different (less than) the temperature rating of the insulation on the conductor.
Well, if going by my 2nd interpretation, which you're saying is the correct one, it says shall not exceed... so you COULD use the SAME temperature column as the conductor provided the conductor is the lowest rated temperature and there isn't something lower, such as a terminal or equipment rating.

I see now that if this were to apply to the conductor you're selecting, then it wouldn't make sense to reference conductor again later in the same sentence. That what they seem to be saying is that whatever component has the lowest rated temperature in the system is the where you start at and that's all.

110.14(C) (first paragraph) by itself in no way limits the use of higher rated insulation at an termination.
I never meant to say that it was preventing you from choosing a higher rated insulation conductor, the way I meant to frame it in my initial interpretation was that the first sentence is giving you a basic starting point (i.e. 60*C terminations = 60*C conductors), but that later on in 110.14(C) you would be given permission, under certain circumstances, to utilize higher temperature conductors such as with 110.14(C)(1)(a)(2).

But I see now how that is problematic. For one, if that were the case, the later rules would be an exception to the previous rules, that is, if it were to follow the structure of the rest of the code.

It still seems a bit odd to me though. One would think the simple answer would be 60*C piece of equipment = 60*C conductors. Done. But then it wouldn't be the NEC that we all know and "love" now would it? Haha. Remember that in a given set of conditions, changing just the insulation temperature rating isn't going to change the actual operating temperature of a conductor. [To first order, the different insulation material might conduct heat slightly differently.] So an interpretation of NEC language that would result in an allowable installation with 60C rated wire that would not be allowed with 75C or 90C rated wire is disqualified as absurd.

Also, you speak of the possibility of damage to 60C terminations from using 60C wire at its ampacity, but there is none. The 60C rating of the insulation and terminations means they will be undamaged at 60C, and the 60C ampacity means the wire will not exceed 60C (barring extreme thermal environments like operating the conductor in a vacuum, it's a rule not a law). So there should be no possibility of damage.
With this, I was just presenting my understanding of why these limits are being set and giving an overly simplistic example for the sake of clarity. Obviously a 60*C conductor at its' max allowable ampacity would not damage the 60*C termination because that would mean we could never utilize the max allowable ampacities in 310.15(B)(16).

It was simply meant to convey the idea that this is why we are setting these limits - to prevent conductors from overheating and damaging themselves and the terminations, equipment. There exists no other plausible explanation for this rule in my mind. Components have a temperature rating, and if we were to put a 90*C conductor at its' max allowable ampacity on a 60*C terminal, it could damage the termination, but as stated, the real world limits likely exist above what the NEC has limited us to for safety purposes.

However, you raise an interesting point about the sentence in 310.15(B) "The temperature correction and adjustment factors shall be permitted to be applied to the ampacity for the temperature [rating of the conductor] if the corrected and adjusted ampacity does not exceed the ampacity for the temperature rating of the termination in accordance with the provisions of 110.14(C)."
Well, thank you. I appreciate the tiny bit of credit you're giving me, because I'm not getting much around here lately, lol.

This is the CRUX of what I'm talking about in how I initially read these code sections in trying to figure out how 110.14(C) and 310.15(B) work together and how I came up with the OP.

IMO, this part of 310.15(B) is pretty clear.

The first part of the sentence is giving us permission to apply correction and adjustment factors to the temperature rating of the conductor and the portion following the if statement is a conditional requirement of that permission.

If it's 60*C conductors on 60*C terminations, post correction and adjustment, there's zero chance of the final result exceeding the ampacity set by 110.14(C).

However, if we are utilizing 90*C conductors on 60*C terminations, and derating from the 90*C column, we have to ensure the final result does not exceed the limit set by 110.14(C). This would effectively ensure that no termination gets damaged from too high an ampacity.

This is commonly understood to mean "if the 110.14(C) ampacity is lower, the overall ampacity is limited to that lower value."
But the portion following the if statement is clearly a condition of the prior permission being granted to apply correction and adjustment to the ampacity of a wire's temperature rating.

Otherwise, wouldn't it be repetitive because that's the purpose that 310.15(A)(2) serves?

So either the two portions of code are repetitive, or that particular part of 310.15(B) means something different.

But it could be read as saying "if the 110.14(C) ampacity is lower, you need to go back and start your correction and adjustment again at a lower temperature column."
What I think it means, is that you've failed to satisfy the condition of the permission being granted to derate from the temperature of the conductor (i.e. 90*C wire on a 60*c termination) and must now derate from the limit set by the 110.14(C).

You could derate from a lower temperature column in figuring your allowable ampacity, but as I understand it, you can't just go derating from a lower column any old time. The wire itself has to be listed for that purpose such as when THHN 90*C is dual rated as THWN 75*C. Then you could perform that recalculation.

But this brings up another interesting issue because if look at the specs for Southwire SimPull, it seems to imply that derating is ONLY allowed from the 90*C column

Unless the equipment is marked for use at higher temperatures the conductor shall be limited to the following per NEC 110.14(C):
60°C - When terminated to equipment for circuits rated 100 amperes or less or marked for 14 - 1 AWG conductors.
75°C - When terminated to equipment for circuits rated over 100 amperes or marked for conductors larger than 1 AWG.
90°C - THHN dry locations and THWN-2 wet or dry locations for ampacity adjustment purposes using NEC section 310.15.
 
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