Power company wants a main breaker (OCP) in panel that has a an OCP at the S.W.B.???

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Free Electron

Free Electron

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Upstate New York
I need some ammo.
My company installed a 200 amp, 120/208v, 3 phase M.L.O. panel in a store 150 feet from the main switch board. The switch board is ( if I remember correctly) 1600 amps, 120/208 with a main disconnect, with 8 to 10 cold sequence meter compartments that all have lockable ocp device breakers before the meters. The meter installer would not install the meter for this store, claiming the MLO panel we installed needed a main breaker. I explained to him the load center is already protected by the switchboard breaker and it was inspected and approved by an electrical inspection agency. This is where he called his supervisor for direction and was told it was in the code and we will needed a main breaker. I asked please state the article in the NEC ,which he couldn't. He is hung up on the breaker being installed before the meter and nothing after the mater. When he looked at some of the other existing stores they had main breakers in them. Needless to say he left without installing the meter, leaving my customer looking at me for a solution. Anybody ever run into this??
 
Free Electron said:
I need some ammo.
My company installed a 200 amp, 120/208v, 3 phase M.L.O. panel in a store 150 feet from the main switch board. The switch board is ( if I remember correctly) 1600 amps, 120/208 with a main disconnect, with 8 to 10 cold sequence meter compartments that all have lockable ocp device breakers before the meters. The meter installer would not install the meter for this store, claiming the MLO panel we installed needed a main breaker. I explained to him the load center is already protected by the switchboard breaker and it was inspected and approved by an electrical inspection agency. This is where he called his supervisor for direction and was told it was in the code and we will needed a main breaker. I asked please state the article in the NEC ,which he couldn't. He is hung up on the breaker being installed before the meter and nothing after the mater. When he looked at some of the other existing stores they had main breakers in them. Needless to say he left without installing the meter, leaving my customer looking at me for a solution. Anybody ever run into this??
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If I have read this correctly, The meter can't be installed or pulled dead without flipping the 1600 amp disconnect, correct?

Maybe I have missed something. The 200 amp MLO panel is procted by the 1600 amp main that controls the other 8-10 meter sockets?
 
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If I understand correctly he has a place on the supply side to shut off this feeder, which allows him to install meter de-energized if that is what he wants or is required to do. Overcurrent protection IMO is really not his call, although you have indicated there is overcurrent protection also at the disconnecting location.

That said, in most cases POCO can specify what they want for metering equipment, even if on load side of service disconnecting means, like what may be common in multi occupant installations, but if they are a reputable organization they will have a standard policy for this, and it should have come up in design and specification stage of the project, and not make up policy as they go.
 
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Free Electron said:
No ,there is one main switch and each each section has it's own breaker and meter.
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And is the breaker in same compartment or right next to the meter it disconnects?

If so there is no code issue at all with that, and it is done that way in many, many places.
 
Hv&Lv said:
If I have read this correctly, The meter can't be installed or pulled dead without flipping the 1600 amp disconnect, correct?

Maybe I have missed something. The 200 amp MLO panel is procted by the 1600 amp main that controls the other 8-10 meter sockets?
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No, It has a main and each compartmet has it's own breaker and meter socket.
 
Free Electron said:
No, It has a main and each compartmet has it's own breaker and meter socket.
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POCO guy really has no business even knowing what is at the other end of the conductor after it leaves the meter, unless he is the AHJ, but you have already said the AHJ approved your installation.
 
kwired said:
If I understand correctly he has a place on the supply side to shut off this feeder, which allows him to install meter de-energized if that is what he wants or is required to do. Overcurrent protection IMO is really not his call, although you have indicated there is overcurrent protection also at the disconnecting location.

That said, in most cases POCO can specify what they want for metering equipment, even if on load side of service disconnecting means, like what may be common in multi occupant installations, but if they are a reputable organization they will have a standard policy for this, and it should have come up in design and specification stage of the project, and not make up policy as they go.
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You guys jumped on this before I had time to type and my reply and it might have been out of order.

I didn't think it would be his call ether, since it was inspected and approved by an independent agency. I have a customer without power and changing out the interior of the load center to one with a main breaker to satisfy the POCO is going to be a little costly.
 
I'm with kwired here. The POCO seemed to overstep their bounds. Heck, houses aren't protected before the meters, they are all after the meters. Why should this be any different?
 
Free Electron said:
You guys jumped on this before I had time to type and my reply and it might have been out of order.

I didn't think it would be his call ether, since it was inspected and approved by an independent agency. I have a customer without power and changing out the interior of the load center to one with a main breaker to satisfy the POCO is going to be a little costly.
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Call the POCO Engineer, not the operations or meter supervisor. Explain that the install met AHJ approval, and ask why this install should be different than the norm.
 
Hv&Lv said:
Call the POCO Engineer, not the operations or meter supervisor. Explain that the install met AHJ approval, and ask why this install should be different than the norm.
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That was my next step.
But this particular POCO it is very difficult to deal with. You can't talk to any planners or engineers directly, everything goes through their call office.
 
Free Electron said:
... it was inspected and approved by an electrical inspection agency. ...
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kwired said:
...but you have already said the AHJ approved your installation.
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Free Electron said:
...it was inspected and approved by an independent agency. ...
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Hv&Lv said:
... Explain that the install met AHJ approval...
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kwired said:
Have AHJ talk to them. ...
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Seems to me that OP'er has stepped around saying inspected and approved by the AHJ specifically.

Even if the AHJ approves, I don't believe they can compel the POCO to connect.

There's a good chance the meter installer did not relate the proper details to his supervisor. They are so used to services including their meters and ending at a disconnecting means after the meter, they don't comprehend a service ending at a disconnecting means ahead of their meter.

Does this particular POCO publish their service installation requirements online?
 
Free Electron said:
That was my next step.
But this particular POCO it is very difficult to deal with. You can't talk to any planners or engineers directly, everything goes through their call office.
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NYSE&G is fun, huh? For those of you who haven't had the displeasure of working with them, here's how their system works: If you have a question for a field planner, you call their main call center. They then transfer you to the planner's direct line. But if he's not at his desk (which he usually isn't since he's a FIELD planner) you leave him a message. Now let's say he returns your call but you're not there. He leaves you a message, but he's not supposed to leave you his extension to call him directly. So you now have to call the call center again and have them transfer you. And when he's again not at his desk . . . you guessed it, the whole circle starts again.
 
Smart $ said:
Seems to me that OP'er has stepped around saying inspected and approved by the AHJ specifically.
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He's not stepping around anything. That's how it's done around here. You hire a private, independant inspection agency to inspect your work and submit certification to either the utility company for a service, or the town for wiring of a structure.

It's the stupidest system going.
 
Speshulk said:
NYSE&G is fun, huh? For those of you who haven't had the displeasure of working with them, here's how their system works: If you have a question for a field planner, you call their main call center. They then transfer you to the planner's direct line. But if he's not at his desk (which he usually isn't since he's a FIELD planner) you leave him a message. Now let's say he returns your call but you're not there. He leaves you a message, but he's not supposed to leave you his extension to call him directly. So you now have to call the call center again and have them transfer you. And when he's again not at his desk . . . you guessed it, the whole circle starts again.
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Just for fun have 100 different people call and leave him a message with a call back number, with nothing particularly important for him. Better yet have most of them claim they never called him or "you must have the wrong number" when he does return their call.:cool:
 
Free Electron said:
That was my next step.
But this particular POCO it is very difficult to deal with. You can't talk to any planners or engineers directly, everything goes through their call office.
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I'd argue that it's actually beneficial for them to have a disconnect before the meter. Being able to turn off the line side of the meter socket makes it a safer installation for whoever's setting the meter.
 
If there is a disconnect on the line side of the meter, then the utility has overstepped...If you can't get any action to get the meter installed, you may need to get the state utility commission involved.
 
Speshulk said:
NYSE&G is fun, huh? For those of you who haven't had the displeasure of working with them, here's how their system works: If you have a question for a field planner, you call their main call center. They then transfer you to the planner's direct line. But if he's not at his desk (which he usually isn't since he's a FIELD planner) you leave him a message. Now let's say he returns your call but you're not there. He leaves you a message, but he's not supposed to leave you his extension to call him directly. So you now have to call the call center again and have them transfer you. And when he's again not at his desk . . . you guessed it, the whole circle starts again.
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It's not NYSE&G . It's the Britain owned company. I prefer not to turn this into a N.G. bash.
 
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