Power Dist Panel Board Mounted inside of UL508A panel

[Macbeth]

We are being asked to install a 480vac, 3ph, 200a power distribution panel inside of our UL508A control panel. they want us to remove the Guts and reinstall them inside of our enclosure.

We have done this back in the 80’s and early 90’s, but felt as though removing the guts of a power destruction panel and installing them into an new enclosure, may be a violation for the code.

Thanks for any and all opinions..

 

[petersonra]

The only code that would matter is UL508a. If it says you can do it you can.

You might have to get your procedure changed to allow it.

 

[Jraef]

In the back of UL-508A, there is Table SA1.1 that is a list of all of the other UL Standards that are acceptable to use in a 508A listed panel at will. Panelboards are listed under UL-67, which is NOT on that list. So that means you would need to "add it to your procedure" as Bob said, and your UL inspector may or may not accept it. Most likely what they will want to see is if the guts are themselves listed without the can and cover, and they might not be.

 

[brantmacga]

I don’t know anything about the UL listing process for it, but I know I’ve bought control panels from companies like Hill Phoenix where they take a NQ or NF panelboard and install it inside their control enclosure.

I’ve bought them for gas stations, restaurants, retail stores, etc...

They build their own doors for the panelboards that match the rest of the enclosure. Usually all the breakers & relays are landed on a DIN rail terminal strip. We bring conductors in, and land it on the corresponding terminal.


Here’s a pic of one we installed awhile back.... is this similar to what you’re talking about ?

https://imgur.com/a/2O34OBo

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Macbeth]

Correct UL508a is what we are trying not to violate.

Table SA1.1 looked up UL-67 did that as well.

Contacted Siemens, SQD, and GE no help at all panels are listed as shipped..

Yup that is exactly what we use to do. We felt as though removing the guts and tossing the enclosure away was not the best way to go since all the ratings and approvals were on the enclosure. it defiantly is a cheaper way than MCB and din mounting breakers.

I has started the add to "Procedures" process..

 

[paulengr]

Seems crazy. Isn’t it cheaper than just use new panel mount breakers? Plus aren’t you taking equipment intended for distribution and using it in a supplemental role?

Also I have seen a ton of 508A style installs where the panelboard is mounted on a door in a prepared space.

Also in some retrofits Schneider suggested that the guts are the Listing so gutting any panel and ordering panelboards as a retrofit kit is legal. This is with new parts, not reuse.

Either way though these are end user installs not a Listed assembly: I’m sure it’s legal to provide a prepared space. You’d be better off building the panel and stamping that then install the panel as an electrical contractor under NEC instead of 508A.

 

[Macbeth]

It is way cheaper and easier than din mounted breakers. You can buy the panel boards preloaded with Main and Branch Breakes for less than 1/2 the cost. Then for mounting the Distribution Assembly that takes about 5min to mount , then your done the incomming power lugs, main breaker and distribution breakers are all mounted.

Distribution Breakers (UL489) can always be used in place of supplemental (UL1077). We stopped using UL1077 10 years ago. Not worth explaining to the shop floor foks why they could not interchange UL1077 with UL489.

"Retrofit kits" ya say.. That's a good lead.. Making a phone call on that.. Thanks.

Onsite Panel Modifications.
Any component maybe replaced with "same" at any time. Replacing with "Like" parts maybe done if the drawing does not state coordinated installation for this could cause a violation of the SCCR. Also if the drawing contains the part number then only that part number can be used.
Never is it acceptable to add or remove any component from a UL508a panel onsite. this could potentially trigger an onsite evaluation.
Obviously the above are some of the most overlooked but once we had an Onsite review triggered because a trimmer was added inside of some combination starter panels that were supplied as UL508a panel mounted on some equipment.
The user can only wire to the panel they are not allowed to install there own equipment..

 

[jim dungar]

Check the listings carefully. You are not the first, or the last, panel builder to do this. In days gone by, you could find the bussing and deadfront of a panelboard to be listed separate from its cabinet/box.

Believe it or not, but most manufacturer's salespeople are not experts on all of the codes and standards that may apply to their products. You would want to check with the 'equipment manufacturers (OEM)' specialist and not contractor or general sales.

 

[Macbeth]

My response from UL was something like this

First response.
No! Now go smoke crack some ware else.
Will review with with addition UL support Team just in case.

Final response.
Oops, our bad. After additional reviewing of your request. Yes, You may install a panel board, that is UL Listed, inside your UL508a panel.
As long as the Panel board bears some UL ratting. It does not have to be UL508a, so UL67 is acceptable.
The Box maybe removed but the front cover needs to remain on the Distribution panel, revealing only the face of the breaker and disconnect, the sides maybe open.

 

[texie]

I don’t know anything about the UL listing process for it, but I know I’ve bought control panels from companies like Hill Phoenix where they take a NQ or NF panelboard and install it inside their control enclosure.

I’ve bought them for gas stations, restaurants, retail stores, etc...

They build their own doors for the panelboards that match the rest of the enclosure. Usually all the breakers & relays are landed on a DIN rail terminal strip. We bring conductors in, and land it on the corresponding terminal.


Here’s a pic of one we installed awhile back.... is this similar to what you’re talking about ?

https://imgur.com/a/2O34OBo

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My experience as well. Has become the standard in the gas station business.

 

[jim dungar]

The Box maybe removed but the front cover needs to remain on the Distribution panel, revealing only the face of the breaker and disconnect, the sides maybe open.

This probably means the interior deadfront, the one with the breaker twistouts, and not the exterior box cover/front/door
They want the bussing covered.

 

[Macbeth]

They want the bussing covered.

That's possible but never had them be covered about finger safe before. Reviewing a dist panel I see all the ratings plates are attached to the cover they say I must keep.

 

[jim dungar]

That's possible but never had them be covered about finger safe before.

I didn't say anything about being finger safe. The UL quote you provided says the sides can be open.

 

[Macbeth]

Jim,
I didn't intend to put words in you mouth. I was simply trying to say I know UL does not cares if something is exposed or covered. In fact we go to great length to ensure all of our panels have no exposed parts to the level that we have our own Hot Plastic Vacuum forming equipment to create custom shields when needed. Several of the UL guys we have had informed us we were going beyond what we needed to do.

Their comment on sides open was regarding me not wanting to punch holes and gromit wires through the enclosure.

 

[Jraef]

Square D NQOD panels used to be UL listed without the box, but yes, you still had to use the interior dead-front. But the last time I used one, Table SA1.1 had not yet been published, so it was accepted because the panel was UL listed. If your UL inspector says it is acceptable though, that's what really matters.

 

[tommtgun1585]

My response from UL was something like this

First response.
No! Now go smoke crack some ware else.
Will review with with addition UL support Team just in case.

Final response.
Oops, our bad. After additional reviewing of your request. Yes, You may install a panel board, that is UL Listed, inside your UL508a panel.
As long as the Panel board bears some UL ratting. It does not have to be UL508a, so UL67 is acceptable.
The Box maybe removed but the front cover needs to remain on the Distribution panel, revealing only the face of the breaker and disconnect, the sides maybe open.

Sorry for the late intro. I had a colleague ask about mounting a distribution panel in a 508 enclosure and this came up. The panel board is required by spec and one of the guys on site is referencing NEC 110.26 stating there has to be 3 feet clearance or the panel board has to be mounted externally, which will cause a huge redesign. I'm saying the distribution can, in fact, be mounted internally but am having a difficult time finding a specific reference in UL that backs it up. It's a fairly standard box; NEMA-3R mounted roadside for traffic equipment. The main feed is 50A but actual load is around 15A using 8-10 breakers. Thanks.