Power Factor verses Efficiency

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I?m fundamentally in Besorker?s camp,
Appreciated.
I don't really get hung up about the name although I do tease about it here and elsewhere.
We can all make typos. On the qwerty keyboard the two juxtaposed letters are adjacent.

And I'm too old to get seriously upset by much but it does irk me a bit to be told to come to terms with KVA, KW and KVAR.
Had I not done so decades ago, I'd probably now be serving out my latter years in life as a Walmart greeter or the UK equivalent.

Actually on the basis of the past week.......
 
As I already stated efficiency and power factor are two different concepts. In some utility, they measure KVA and bill the consumer according to the amount of KVA consumed. The power factor can also represent the efficiency of KVA consumption from the uility viewpoint. But this does not mean power factor and effiency are same. It takes no effort to see that.

You are welcome to correct me, if I am wrong.

However, many people live, work in the Electical field and die throughout the world without knowing even 1% about the nature of Electricity.
 
As I already stated efficiency and power factor are two different concepts. In some utility, they measure KVA and bill the consumer according to the amount of KVA consumed. The power factor can also represent the efficiency of KVA consumption from the uility viewpoint. But this does not mean power factor and effiency are same. It takes no effort to see that.

You are welcome to correct me, if I am wrong.

However, many people live, work in the Electical field and die throughout the world without knowing even 1% about the nature of Electricity.

You can't "consume" kVA, it is a value, not a quantity.
 
Appreciated.
I don't really get hung up about the name although I do tease about it here and elsewhere.
We can all make typos. On the qwerty keyboard the two juxtaposed letters are adjacent.

Could have been a worse typo: Beserker.......:D

berserker_zps3154c362.jpg
 
You can't "consume" kVA, it is a value, not a quantity.
Again no. The utility here routinely measure KVA as quantity and bill it also. In their one bill attached herewith, the contracted MD is 120 KVA. For the month of February 2013, the actual demand was 108 KVA and was billed accordingly ( underlined line-8 in the attached file.)
 

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Again no. The utility here routinely measure KVA as quantity and bill it also. In their one bill attached herewith, the contracted MD is 120 KVA. For the month of February 2013, the actual demand was 108 KVA and was billed accordingly ( underlined line-8 in the attached file.)
You have to be clear on what VA we are talking about. What they are recording is peak Vrms*Irms values which is not the same as instantaneous readings of volts * amps (not the same as recording V*A*time then dividing by the interval).

For example, a 1.2 + j1.0 ohm load on a 120V/60Hz source will yield the following:
S = 9,213 VA
P = 7,081 W
Q = 5,895 var

If looking at the instantaneous readings, you would see that:

The S, P, & Q values for VA, var, and W are all 1/2 of the peak-peak values of their instantaneous plots in the time domain.

Consider the plot of VA(t) with a pure resistive load. It is equal to the W(t) plot and the power value S = P = (VA(t)_max-VA(t)_min)/2 = (W(t)_max-W(t)_min)/2. Here W(t)_min equals zero so we get power equal to W(t)_max/2.

Now consider the plot of VA(t) with a pure reactive load. It is equal to the var(t) plot centered over the x-axis and the power value S = Q = (VA(t)_max-VA(t)_min)/2 = (var(t)_max-var(t)_min)/2. Note that since it is centered on the x-axis we get Q equal to var(t)_max.

Now consider the plot of VA(t) with a resistive and reactive load. It is not centered over the x-axis and the power value S = (VA(t)_max-VA(t)_min)/2. We also have P = (W(t)_max-W(t)_min)/2 and Q = (var(t)_max-var(t)_min)/2.

These are the same values we get by using RMS measurements of voltage and current. The VA (or S) here is supposed to represent the worst case scenario of what the system might be required to handle so is what we use to size equipment.



As for metering the 120 V / 60 Hz source feeding a 1.2 + j1.0 Ω load we would see that the metering shows:

Vrms = 120
Irms = 76.78
S = VA = Vrms*Irms = 9,213 VA
P = VA_average = 7,081 W
Q = sqrt(S2-P2) = 5,895 var
pf = 0.77

You may also note:
1) metering |VA|s over a period yields 7,704 VA
2) metering |+VA|s over a period yields 9,490 VA
3) metering |-VA|s over a period yields 1,410 VA
4) metering Ws over a period yields 7,081 W
5) metering |var|s over a period yields 3,753 var

so you can see there is quite a difference and directly measuring VA quantities does not always give us what we are looking for if we are not careful. You might be tempted to say we need capacity of 7,704 VA or 9490+1410=10,900 VA or 9490-1410=8,080 VA instead of 9,213 VA.



A note about energy exchange:

We know that the |+VA|s is energy delivered and |-VA|s is energy returned and the net of the two produces the Ws consumed for the period.

We casually speak of reactive energy flowing back and forth from the load to the source in half cycles but that is not exactly what happens except on loads with no resistance (which don't exist). Consider the resistor-inductor load. As the magnetic field charges, the source has to deliver the real energy (Wh) plus the energy to charge the inductor (varh).

As the inductor discharges, the real energy needed by the load is supplied by both the source and the energy from the collapsing magnetic field (when VA(t) is positive and greater than W(t) in the plot). As the field discharges, it supplies all of its released energy to the real load (when VA(t) is positive and less than W(t) in the plot). Over time, the real energy needed is less that what is being released from the magnetic field and then this excess field energy is returned to the source (when VA(t) is negative in the plot).

VA-W-var.jpg
 
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mivey:
I adopted what is called phenomenological approach: the nature of physical quantities involved do not matter; only their measurements and their relationships matter in a study. One prime example of application of it is Ohm's law. Likewise, my approach is KVA is what is measured by the utility and evidently, the utility treats it as a quantity and not as a value like honesty which is not a quantity and can not be measured.
 
Again no. The utility here routinely measure KVA as quantity and bill it also. In their one bill attached herewith, the contracted MD is 120 KVA. For the month of February 2013, the actual demand was 108 KVA and was billed accordingly ( underlined line-8 in the attached file.)

Where does it say ' consumption' - your original word? Or for that matter 'quantity', your new word.

The dispute here is not that kVA is not used as a charge, elsewhere I explained how and why, but what it is'nt. It's not energy, it is not quantity and it can not be consumed.
 
mivey:
I adopted what is called phenomenological approach: the nature of physical quantities involved do not matter; only their measurements and their relationships matter in a study. One prime example of application of it is Ohm's law. Likewise, my approach is KVA is what is measured by the utility and evidently, the utility treats it as a quantity and not as a value like honesty which is not a quantity and can not be measured.

More like the Humpty-Dumpty approach: words mean whatever you say they mean.
 
Where does it say ' consumption' - your original word? Or for that matter 'quantity', your new word.
The dispute here is not that kVA is not used as a charge, elsewhere I explained how and why, but what it is'nt. It's not energy, it is not quantity and it can not be consumed.

Part of KVA i.e KVAR that can not be consumed.

Part of KVA i.e KW that is consumed.

So KVA consumption is one of degree: 100% when KVA=KW and 0% when KVA=KVAR and in practice, the actual KVA consumption is between 0% to 100%. And to ascertain the degree or efficiency of KVA consumption, power factor may serve as a measure.

So what is the contradiction in the above?
 
total work being done doesn't change whether or not the power factor is high or low. Connect a motor to a specific load and measure the current. Now add power factor correction and measure current to the motor again. It remains the same or changes only slightly because amount of line losses decreased from improving power factor. Output power remained the same. Current at the meter changed but power did not. Reactive current does no work and is not current related to power, it is not consumed, it is just managed.

Reactive power does contribute to additional power being consumed from the line losses it introduces, but the reactive current itself does no work and doesn't directly consume power.
 
Part of KVA i.e KVAR that can not be consumed.

Part of KVA i.e KW that is consumed.

So KVA consumption is one of degree: 100% when KVA=KW and 0% when KVA=KVAR and in practice, the actual KVA consumption is between 0% to 100%. And to ascertain the degree or efficiency of KVA consumption, power factor may serve as a measure.

So what is the contradiction in the above?

Without time there is no quantity, Whithout quantity there is no consumption.
 
As I already stated efficiency and power factor are two different concepts. In some utility, they measure KVA and bill the consumer according to the amount of KVA consumed. The power factor can also represent the efficiency of KVA consumption from the uility viewpoint. But this does not mean power factor and effiency are same. It takes no effort to see that.
No one in here has said that power factor and efficiency are the same thing. The OP asked if they were and everyone said "no".
 
Can you 'consume' kW?

How about kWh?

Do you see where the time 'element' is?

He has shown us the power bill indicating KVAR and time, but has not proven anything was actually consumed in relation to that.

Being billed for power factor does not mean you used anything, you are just being penalized for the condition.
 
Again no. The utility here routinely measure KVA as quantity and bill it also.

He has shown us the power bill indicating KVAR and time, but has not proven anything was actually consumed in relation to that.

Being billed for power factor does not mean you used anything, you are just being penalized for the condition.

kwired: I don't see kVAr or 'time' associated with it, so don't really know what you're trying to say. Sahib has claimed kVA as quantity, which it is not. The bill he has presented does not identify the what is being billed, just identified as units. Lets presume that to be kWhr's. Line 1 through 6 and then it summarizes it in line 7 as Total energy charges. Lines 1-5 uses the word 'consumption'. Then in line 8 it indicates demand charges for kVA and in line 8 summarizes Demand and Energy charges, clearly indicating that Demand itself is SEPARATE form Energy.

As I explained earlier Utility Companies use demand charges as a transmission/conversion eqipment surcharge, because they have to size their equipment to deliver kVA and not kW. They measure the highest monthly averaged peak (demand) to determine what this particular customer's power need required for that month and apply the demand charge accordingly.
 
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