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G
Guest
Guest
Re: POWER QUALITY SURVEY needed in San Francisco area.
I want to be as educated about this as possible so I can sub this out to a PQ specialist.
As the building is old I'm assuming there are PQ issues in the building, and I am assuming that there are PQ issues in this suite.
I want to oversee this, but I want to hire a specialist to do the testing and the report (and recommendations). That's the intent of my post.
All helpful replies are appreciated. Referrals are requested (shameless plugs included). Keep it coming! Thanks!
I want to be as educated about this as possible so I can sub this out to a PQ specialist.
As the building is old I'm assuming there are PQ issues in the building, and I am assuming that there are PQ issues in this suite.
I want to oversee this, but I want to hire a specialist to do the testing and the report (and recommendations). That's the intent of my post.
All helpful replies are appreciated. Referrals are requested (shameless plugs included). Keep it coming! Thanks!
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: POWER QUALITY SURVEY needed in San Francisco area.
Bennie, two big things have happened that effect power quality and we are the reason for both . . . sort of. First, we all thought that competition would bring in the era of cheap and reliable power. The same thing that happened to AT&T is happening to the various power companies. The power grid is being operated by someone else and there is no business incentive to upgrade it. In some cases, the distribution system is even operated by someone else. Power plants are owned and operated by yet another entity. Everything is a hodgepodge and no one is in control of the whole system. If memory serves me correctly, the power companies in California were forced to split up their systems and sell off their power plants. HMMM
Secondly, when I was young (not quite as far back as you, but close), we didn't care about power quality much. We had a few light bulbs and needed to be able to plug in the radio. We had a coal furnace, bottle gas range, and a motor on the well pump. Those were the days when I remember sitting in the wash tub in the middle of the kitchen floor. Why did we care about power quality? Now we have all kinds of electronics and want perfect power. Did you know (I assume you do) that approximately 90% of the "dirty power" is due to improper grounding on the customer's premises? Almost all of the rest is due to customer caused harmonics from the very equipment that we want to get "clean power" to.
Bennie, two big things have happened that effect power quality and we are the reason for both . . . sort of. First, we all thought that competition would bring in the era of cheap and reliable power. The same thing that happened to AT&T is happening to the various power companies. The power grid is being operated by someone else and there is no business incentive to upgrade it. In some cases, the distribution system is even operated by someone else. Power plants are owned and operated by yet another entity. Everything is a hodgepodge and no one is in control of the whole system. If memory serves me correctly, the power companies in California were forced to split up their systems and sell off their power plants. HMMM
Secondly, when I was young (not quite as far back as you, but close), we didn't care about power quality much. We had a few light bulbs and needed to be able to plug in the radio. We had a coal furnace, bottle gas range, and a motor on the well pump. Those were the days when I remember sitting in the wash tub in the middle of the kitchen floor. Why did we care about power quality? Now we have all kinds of electronics and want perfect power. Did you know (I assume you do) that approximately 90% of the "dirty power" is due to improper grounding on the customer's premises? Almost all of the rest is due to customer caused harmonics from the very equipment that we want to get "clean power" to.
Re: POWER QUALITY SURVEY needed in San Francisco area.
Thanks very much Charlie. I'm out of my league when it comes to this subject, with you around. I figured I would create enough smoke and you would put out the fire.
We, in the Pacific Northwest, are fortunate to have a lot of hydro-power, however it goes to the highest bidder.
Grand Coulee, Bonneyville, John Day, The Dalles, All sell elsewhere.
In my judgement, the biggest threat to our national security is the vulnerability of our power grid.
Thanks very much Charlie. I'm out of my league when it comes to this subject, with you around. I figured I would create enough smoke and you would put out the fire.
We, in the Pacific Northwest, are fortunate to have a lot of hydro-power, however it goes to the highest bidder.
Grand Coulee, Bonneyville, John Day, The Dalles, All sell elsewhere.
In my judgement, the biggest threat to our national security is the vulnerability of our power grid.
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: POWER QUALITY SURVEY needed in San Francisco area.
I have a report published by Florida Power and Light that states, "By 1990, 15% of loads contained harmonic currents. As of 2000, this has increased to 50%."
An increase of 35% for anything in only 10 years is huge. Harmonics are catching up with fuel price increases!
I have a report published by Florida Power and Light that states, "By 1990, 15% of loads contained harmonic currents. As of 2000, this has increased to 50%."
An increase of 35% for anything in only 10 years is huge. Harmonics are catching up with fuel price increases!
G
Guest
Guest
Re: POWER QUALITY SURVEY needed in San Francisco area.
A few thoughts:
I'm still looking for referrals. I will follow up on the shameless plug already posted. Thanks for that.
One PQ issue I did not mention in my previous posts, and it's not an issue at this job site is: Flicker.
Side topic brought up by Bennie and my comment: Pacific Northwest was almost 100% hydro. Then nuclear came along and the Pacific Northwest signed on with the promise of even cheaper or maybe even free electricity. Since switching to more dependence on nuclear power it's my understanding the Pacific Northwest now has the highest per KW rates in the nation. Nuclear killed the goose that laid the golden egg.
Now, back to the issue at hand: I found a neat link for anybody who is interested in getting more basic education/information about PQ (Power Quality) issues:
http://powerstandards.com/tutor.htm
That company also manufactures a sag/swell generator. Like I need a device to create dirty power
http://powerstandards.com/saggen.htm
They also make a Power Quality relay:
http://powerstandards.com/pqrelay.htm
Please keep adding to this thread. All helpful posts are appreciated.
[ May 12, 2004, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]
A few thoughts:
I'm still looking for referrals. I will follow up on the shameless plug already posted. Thanks for that.
One PQ issue I did not mention in my previous posts, and it's not an issue at this job site is: Flicker.
Side topic brought up by Bennie and my comment: Pacific Northwest was almost 100% hydro. Then nuclear came along and the Pacific Northwest signed on with the promise of even cheaper or maybe even free electricity. Since switching to more dependence on nuclear power it's my understanding the Pacific Northwest now has the highest per KW rates in the nation. Nuclear killed the goose that laid the golden egg.
Now, back to the issue at hand: I found a neat link for anybody who is interested in getting more basic education/information about PQ (Power Quality) issues:
http://powerstandards.com/tutor.htm
That company also manufactures a sag/swell generator. Like I need a device to create dirty power
http://powerstandards.com/saggen.htm
They also make a Power Quality relay:
http://powerstandards.com/pqrelay.htm
Please keep adding to this thread. All helpful posts are appreciated.
[ May 12, 2004, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]
catchtwentytwo
Senior Member
Re: POWER QUALITY SURVEY needed in San Francisco area.
I understand that Electrotek Concepts wants to see "strange" PQ Waveforms. Email address is waveform@electrotek.com
I understand that Electrotek Concepts wants to see "strange" PQ Waveforms. Email address is waveform@electrotek.com
Re: POWER QUALITY SURVEY needed in San Francisco area.
Level 1 Survey. Testing and analysis of the AC distribution and grounding.
Level 2 Survey. Level 1 plus monitoring ac voltage supplying the equipment over a given time.
Level 3 Survey. Levels 1 and 3 plus environmental monitoring over a given period of time.
Before you jump in you need to establish some parameters such as:
What equipment is having problems.
Types of malfunctions (data loss, lock ups, component damage).
When do problems occur.
Existing protection for equipment.
Possible problem sources. (elevators, HVAC, copy machines)
Coincident problems occurring at the same time. (lights flicker, motors slow down)
You will need to collect all equipment manuals, have a staff electrician available, and get the utility involved.
How much you say. Hard to answer, but you can bet several thousand for a large facility. So you need to justify the expense by looking at how much money has been lost by equipment damage, data loss, production downtime, etc. If all you are talking about is light bulbs and a couple of copiers in an office environment, good luck. I would charge $1500 per day on site plus expenses and detailed written report.
They determine the price by the size of the distribution system, complexity, and to what level of detail you are looking for. For example, they are generally in three categories:
Level 1 Survey. Testing and analysis of the AC distribution and grounding.
Level 2 Survey. Level 1 plus monitoring ac voltage supplying the equipment over a given time.
Level 3 Survey. Levels 1 and 3 plus environmental monitoring over a given period of time.
Before you jump in you need to establish some parameters such as:
What equipment is having problems.
Types of malfunctions (data loss, lock ups, component damage).
When do problems occur.
Existing protection for equipment.
Possible problem sources. (elevators, HVAC, copy machines)
Coincident problems occurring at the same time. (lights flicker, motors slow down)
You will need to collect all equipment manuals, have a staff electrician available, and get the utility involved.
How much you say. Hard to answer, but you can bet several thousand for a large facility. So you need to justify the expense by looking at how much money has been lost by equipment damage, data loss, production downtime, etc. If all you are talking about is light bulbs and a couple of copiers in an office environment, good luck. I would charge $1500 per day on site plus expenses and detailed written report.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: POWER QUALITY SURVEY needed in San Francisco area.
What do you charge for a detailed report?
What do you consider "expenses"?
Thanks again to all for all the helpful answers. Keep them coming! I'm still in the research mode and the client is not in the contract signing mode yet
[ May 14, 2004, 01:48 AM: Message edited by: awwt ]
What do you charge for a detailed report?
What do you consider "expenses"?
Thanks again to all for all the helpful answers. Keep them coming! I'm still in the research mode and the client is not in the contract signing mode yet
[ May 14, 2004, 01:48 AM: Message edited by: awwt ]
G
Guest
Guest
Re: POWER QUALITY SURVEY needed in San Francisco area.
Anbody is welcome to jump on this question about expenses and pricing. Thanks!
Anbody is welcome to jump on this question about expenses and pricing. Thanks!
Re: POWER QUALITY SURVEY needed in San Francisco area.
This forum is not for solicitation. You will notice there are no Pop-Up windows or sponsors. I feel this subject has been adequately answered. If anyone has any more input, PM Wayne privately
with your comments. Topic closed.
[ May 14, 2004, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: dereckbc ]
This forum is not for solicitation. You will notice there are no Pop-Up windows or sponsors. I feel this subject has been adequately answered. If anyone has any more input, PM Wayne privately
with your comments. Topic closed.
[ May 14, 2004, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: dereckbc ]
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