PPE throwing a disconnect

[S'mise]

I could use some clarification on PPE in an Industrial setting. It is my understanding that the proper PPE must be worn by people when interacting with equipment labeled other than HRC0. Or say, If I was to turn on or off a disconnect switch, I must wear gloves, fr clothes, glasses and hearing protection even with the disconnect door closed. When it has been verified that power is isolated, I can take off my PPE.

In my opinion it is way overkill to have to wear all that PPE when mearly approaching a closed panel, although I agree a lesser flash potential may remain. If the above is true, why is it OK for untrained personnel to do so without PPE (say, a Janitor trowing a disconnect)?

Anyone walking by within the 3.5 ft boundary would be in violation? Does not make sense to me.

 

[weressl]

I could use some clarification on PPE in an Industrial setting. It is my understanding that the proper PPE must be worn by people when interacting with equipment labeled other than HRC0. Or say, If I was to turn on or off a disconnect switch, I must wear gloves, fr clothes, glasses and hearing protection even with the disconnect door closed. When it has been verified that power is isolated, I can take off my PPE.

In my opinion it is way overkill to have to wear all that PPE when mearly approaching a closed panel, although I agree a lesser flash potential may remain. If the above is true, why is it OK for untrained personnel to do so without PPE (say, a Janitor trowing a disconnect)?

Anyone walking by within the 3.5 ft boundary would be in violation? Does not make sense to me.

PPE is required.

It is not OK for anyone to operate the gear either without being qualified to do so or wearing the appropriate PPE.

While the equipment is being operated no person should be present in the (prohited)boundary Zone without appropriate PPE.

It has been pretty much the conscensus in the Industry that it is OK to 'walk through' the prohibited Zone while there is no interaction with the gear, even tough it may be subject to automatic switching duirng those periods.

 

[S'mise]

disconnect with disconnects

disconnect with disconnects

I'm thinking of a scenario where power needs to be shut off immediately! Say, a crane or a machine is running amok, or someone is getting electrocuted. The guy standing 4 ft from the disconnect can not shut it off.
Everyone has to wait for an electrician (trained personnel) to come, and then put on all his ppe before throwing the switch?

 

[weressl]

I'm thinking of a scenario where power needs to be shut off immediately! Say, a crane or a machine is running amok, or someone is getting electrocuted. The guy standing 4 ft from the disconnect can not shut it off.
Everyone has to wait for an electrician (trained personnel) to come, and then put on all his ppe before throwing the switch?

Yep!

Then there is the ADDITION of remotely controlled operator. The unforeseen cost of rulemaking, let the public eat it!

 

[S'mise]

Thanks, I feel better venting.

 

[S'mise]

I miss the good old days when people were practical.

 

[jim dungar]

I'm thinking of a scenario where power needs to be shut off immediately! Say, a crane or a machine is running amok, or someone is getting electrocuted. The guy standing 4 ft from the disconnect can not shut it off.
Everyone has to wait for an electrician (trained personnel) to come, and then put on all his ppe before throwing the switch?

It comes down to how your company's Electrical Safe Work Practice program is written. NFPA70E, and OSHA, tell you what to do (protect the worker), but not the specific steps required to do it.

Many companies allow 'local' disconnects to be opened without PPE, but not closed, while others have no problem with either operation. Their decision is often based on the informational notes in NFPA70e, that allude to 'properly operating and applied equipment does not pose a routine hazard'. Effectively the committee agrees with the experience of millions(?) of routine operations that have occurred over the years.

It all depends on how your switches have been applied and the maintenance they receive. For example, a disconnect switch in a UL type 12 enclosure must be able to be closed onto a fully rated fault, without the doors being opened nor igniting cotton which has been 'wrapped' around the enclosure. While this test has nothing to do with arc flash ratings, it is indicative of how a properly maintained switch is not likely to fail while opening 'rated currents'.

 

[hurk27]

I'm thinking of a scenario where power needs to be shut off immediately! Say, a crane or a machine is running amok, or someone is getting electrocuted. The guy standing 4 ft from the disconnect can not shut it off.
Everyone has to wait for an electrician (trained personnel) to come, and then put on all his ppe before throwing the switch?

Yea I know it's hard to swallow, but rules are rules.

The way it was put to me and I'll kind of use your idea, say you have a man down being electrocuted because he was touching part of a machine, you see this and immediately go grab the handle of the disconnect, but what you didn't know was the conduit was pulled apart that held the feeders to this switch, and one of the phase conductors faulted to the disconnect side conduit and so livened up all that is connected to it including the machine and the disconnect, now both you and your co worker is being shocked, now comes along another coworker, and he too tries to turn off the disconnect and falls victim, now a qualified electrician comes along and realizes what is happening and goes and turns off the breaker that feeds this feeder, but now because of our instinct to help we have three dead or injured instead of just one, this can also apply to high gas areas such as confined spaces, don't be a hero unless you are qualified to do so. Think before you act!!

 

[Sierrasparky]

Yea I know it's hard to swallow, but rules are rules.

The way it was put to me and I'll kind of use your idea, say you have a man down being electrocuted because he was touching part of a machine, you see this and immediately go grab the handle of the disconnect, but what you didn't know was the conduit was pulled apart that held the feeders to this switch, and one of the phase conductors faulted to the disconnect side conduit and so livened up all that is connected to it including the machine and the disconnect, now both you and your co worker is being shocked, now comes along another coworker, and he too tries to turn off the disconnect and falls victim, now a qualified electrician comes along and realizes what is happening and goes and turns off the breaker that feeds this feeder, but now because of our instinct to help we have three dead or injured instead of just one, this can also apply to high gas areas such as confined spaces, don't be a hero unless you are qualified to do so. Think before you act!!

I think that is the most reasonable statement yet made. Yea it's all about training.
There was a confined space situation where one person followed another to their unfortunate early death. This is why responsible fire saftey persons access a situation first, they just don't run into a situation like the old days.

 

[jusme123]

I'm thinking of a scenario where power needs to be shut off immediately! Say, a crane or a machine is running amok, or someone is getting electrocuted. The guy standing 4 ft from the disconnect can not shut it off.
Everyone has to wait for an electrician (trained personnel) to come, and then put on all his ppe before throwing the switch?

I sincerely hope you do not do what is stated in red if the scenario above every plays out

 

[zog]

I'm thinking of a scenario where power needs to be shut off immediately! Say, a crane or a machine is running amok, or someone is getting electrocuted. The guy standing 4 ft from the disconnect can not shut it off.
Everyone has to wait for an electrician (trained personnel) to come, and then put on all his ppe before throwing the switch?

Just being an electrician does nto make one a "Qualified person" per 70E requirements, in fact it has little to do with it. Qualified is not black and white, qualified can be for specific tasks and most facilities will have several different classifications of "qualified".

Then you have the training requirements for "non qualified persons" as well as emergency response personel. All this is laid out in the 2012 70E section 110.2. You may want to read that.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

If you really need PPE, and I agree that the current saftey rules require it, I believe that the disconnect manufacturers are on very shakey legal ground if someone would get hurt while operating a disconnect. The manufactures do not provide a warning label telling you that you need PPE to operate the disconnect.

 

[zog]

If you really need PPE, and I agree that the current saftey rules require it, I believe that the disconnect manufacturers are on very shakey legal ground if someone would get hurt while operating a disconnect. The manufactures do not provide a warning label telling you that you need PPE to operate the disconnect.

Yes they do, it is in every instruction book that comes with just about any disconnect or breaker you install. And there are warning labels on the equipment.

 

[jim dungar]

If you really need PPE, and I agree that the current saftey rules require it, I believe that the disconnect manufacturers are on very shakey legal ground if someone would get hurt while operating a disconnect. The manufactures do not provide a warning label telling you that you need PPE to operate the disconnect.

It is up to the individual employers to decide the require PPE to meet the potential hazard.

I know of at least one 'disconnect manufacturer' whose label clearly says "Apply appropriate PPE...".
They have been using this verbiage since at least 2006. Prior to that the labels did not specifically address arc flash, although they referred to voltage hazards.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Yes they do, it is in every instruction book that comes with just about any disconnect or breaker you install. And there are warning labels on the equipment.

That information is not really available to the user of the disconnect after it has been installed. Very often disconnects are operated by non-electrical people. They have no reason to even suspect that it would be dangerous to use a piece of equipment for its intended purpose.

 

[hurk27]

Yes they do, it is in every instruction book that comes with just about any disconnect or breaker you install. And there are warning labels on the equipment.

Disconnects come with instruction book??? I have never seen one? the label yes but never notice any requirement as per PPE's on older ones just newer ones after the 2011 came out, most just give the data of ratings and how many conductors the terminals can accept, conductor sizing or list the torquing instructions for the lugs or might say something like "to be installed by a qualified person" switch gear maybe, but I have never even seen any kind of instruction book even with a breaker panel?

I know that newer disconnects do come with labels "just thrown inside of the disconnect" that we are supposed to put on the disconnect warning about Arc Flash because of the requirement in 2011 110.16, but it is a field install requirement that really doesn't require the manufacture to supply them (unless it is part of a UL requirement), but some manufactures don't supply them as this is really new requirement and since some areas have not adopted the 2011 and it is not always implemented

 

[hurk27]

To add what Don said, these labels are not saying anything about when operating the switch just when you service them or is just a bland cover all type message, 2011, 110.16 doesn't even say anything about when the disconnect is operated.

Below is out of the 2011 handbook in 110.16 but is about the same as what most manufactures send with the disconnect:

 

[S'mise]

Yep, Thats the exact arc flash tag we use. As I said before; I believe PPE must be warn even if it is not being serviced. Mearly going up to it and turning it on or off. (?) If thats the case, then... Lets say a machine operator has this disconnect switch next to his machine. Would he not also have to be "qualified" and must have PPE?

I agree the company can have its own rules, I am trying to understand the NFPA70E requirements.

 

[jim dungar]

... I am trying to understand the NFPA70E requirements.

NFPA70E is purposly written in general terms, it is guidelines not a how-to.
It says you need PPE when a hazard exists. It does not provide specifics on how to determine the hazard.
NFPA70E clearly says the arc flash 'task tables' and their associated 'PPE' tables are for use when a study has not been performed. But, many people take the specific information from the 'task tables' and apply it to general conditions. When they do this they are 'tailoring' 70E to fit their company's operations (e.g. they don't want to make judgments on PPE).

Look up the definition of arc flash. You will find a long phrase like "interacting in a manner that causes", which many people shorten to simply 'interacting with'. You will find informational notes saying that not every interaction is hazardous.

NFPA70E is about keeping employees safe from electrical hazards in the work place. It needs to be tailored to your company specific operations (i.e. 10 cal/cm? as a cutoff point for different PPE). It is between your company, OSHA, the US Legal system, your insurance company, and your employees.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

...NFPA70E is about keeping employees safe from electrical hazards in the work place. It needs to be tailored to your company specific operations (i.e. 10 cal/cm? as a cutoff point for different PPE). It is between your company, OSHA, the US Legal system, your insurance company, and your employees.

I would expect that the vast majority of people who operate disconnects have never even heard of NFPA 70E. Granted that many of these would be smaller disconnects and my not have an arc flash hazard outside of the enclosure.

It is unreasonable for people to be expected to know that the operation of a switch for its intended purpose is such a hazard that extra-ordinary means of protection need to be used.

Maybe the design needs to be changed to make disconnects reasonably safe to use for their intended purpose.