Pravillion at Swim Club

[Lady Engineer]

I am designing the lighting, wp/gfi receptacle, and a outdoor panel for a pravillion. The pravillion has a concrete structure, with columns, and steel reinforcement at the base of the column. The panel will be remote (400 feet away), if I chose to use the existing panel.

Question, if the panel is 400 feet away, is it better to mount a small sub panel to one of the columns, and run a subfeeder to it, or should I just use the existing panel?

My thoughts: I'm thinking run about 4-5 circuits for lighting, and receptacles, and just bumping up the wire sizes for voltage drop. I'm worried about putting in an outdoor panel, grounding it, locating it so kids and animals can't get to it.

What do you think?


Lady

 

[infinity]

A separate structure can only have one feeder. Therefore the subpanel is your logical choice.

 

[thinfool]

Bumping up

Bumping up

A separate structure can only have one feeder. Therefore the subpanel is your logical choice.

And to add to that.... 'bumping up' the wire size would surprise you if you wanted to maintain ampacity.

Several years ago we upgraded a womens dorm so that they could use modern blow dryers w/o tripping breakers...

To get 20 amps/120 volts w/ high pf at a distance of 100-120 feet we had to run #6 to a 'J' box near the receptacle and then downsize to #12 to connect the receptacle. (this was the engineers calculations)

 

[LarryFine]

Several years ago we upgraded a womens dorm so that they could use modern blow dryers w/o tripping breakers...

To get 20 amps/120 volts w/ high pf at a distance of 100-120 feet we had to run #6 to a 'J' box near the receptacle and then downsize to #12 to connect the receptacle. (this was the engineers calculations)

To me, a sub-panel or few would have been a much more efficient use of that #6 wire.

I hope you didn't mak a separate run of #6 for each receptacle!

 

[thinfool]

To me, a sub-panel or few would have been a much more efficient use of that #6 wire.
QUOTE]

T'wasnt possible in the facility in question....tho there were actually 3-200amp sub panels fed from a new 1000 amp MDP as part of the job.

We used #6 mwbc's on the longest runs, #8 and #10 on the shorter runs.

 

[LarryFine]

T'wasnt possible in the facility in question....tho there were actually 3-200amp sub panels fed from a new 1000 amp MDP as part of the job.

I envision something like 8- to 12-circuit, 125a panels, centered in the group of receptacle runs, with maybe 60a breakers and #6 feeders emanating from those 200a sub-panels.

If you could run circuits, why not feeders? Just curious; I realize the work's been done already.

 

[Lady Engineer]

Nope, it's not a structured BUILDING. It doesn't have a bathroom or anything. It is not a building, it's a canopy. It has no walls, just a covering. There's a panel, but it's remote.

Reread my post or maybe I've clarifed it.

Lady

 

[Lady Engineer]

A separate structure can only have one feeder. Therefore the subpanel is your logical choice.

If it was a building yeah a panel would be good, but it's not a building. It's like a cover area with concrete columns, no walls, windows, doors, or HVAC.

I know you need a local panel for a "building".

 

[infinity]

Nope, it's not a structured BUILDING. It doesn't have a bathroom or anything. It is not a building, it's a canopy. It has no walls, just a covering. There's a panel, but it's remote.

Reread my post or maybe I've clarifed it.

Lady

If it's free standing then it's a structure regardless of what's in it. Here is the Article 100 definition of a structure:

Article 100:
Structure. That which is built or constructed.

 

[infinity]

Here is the problem that you will have with running multiple circuits to a structure:

II. More Than One Building or Other Structure

225.30 Number of Supplies.
Where more than one building or other structure is on the same property and under single management, each additional building or other structure that is served by a branch circuit or feeder on the load side of the service disconnecting means shall be supplied by only one feeder or branch circuit unless permitted in 225.30(A) through (E). For the purpose of this section, a multiwire branch circuit shall be considered a single circuit.

 

[Lady Engineer]

doesn't matter. It still has a panel mounted remotely....

that's not my question...my question, sub panel where there's no where to mount it or use the remote sub.

 

[rr]

Go with the subpanel. But I wouldn't mount it on structure column. That's just an invite for vandals to tear it off. Is there another building that is closer that you can mount the panel in? If not, you could mount the panel on unistrut near the structure?

 

[Lady Engineer]

I think this is the only option, because 400' is a long way, plus running all those bonding conductors....it's going to be pain to mount a panel to a 4" column. I guess it can be free standing, but there's children there, so I don't want them to get hurt.

Thanks Larry, infinity, and RR for your help...I'll let you know how it goes when I go to site.


Lady

 

[adavey]

Lady :

sounds like a rich persons back yard pool area you are designing ??????? If it is, recommend a back up generator design for the house ( $$$$$$$$).

Assuming your load is 60A (240V 1 phase).
From my calc's, a 400 ft. run @ 60A load requires 1/0 THW (PVC conduit) wire to a sub-panel (NEMA 3R enclosure - I would use a main breaker on the sub-panel considering the distance).

For your loads, you did not include a circulator pump. Is the pool heated ???? Also, make sure you read the NEC for clearences around pools.

 

[Lady Engineer]

You know Adavey, it's just a cover crafts area, in a swimming club. There's no nearby pool. I have to agree with everyone, it's a waste of time to pull such big cables, but I did a VD calc myself. The problem, there's a panel designated for it, but it's 400 feet away...stinks.

Plus..yes I said plus there's no where to put the darn sub panel or even a disconnect. I think it's better just to slap a disconnect or panel some where (mounted separately), then to take the risk of 400 feet.

That's a lot of wire.

It think they emptied this panel's loads, and gave this pravillion it's own panel, and like hey Miss Engineer...here's some electricity, and a panel now light it and wire it. That's the God's honest truth.

And that's why they pay me the big bucks! Not really.....I'm just being silly.

Thanks guys....


Lady

 

[bkludecke]

Why not run 3#2cu + 1#8eqgrd in 2" pvc to a small RV pedistal/panel? They are reasonably inexpensive, look good and can be installed near the structure and can be padlocked for safety.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Lady,
One other problem will come into play if you do not mount the sub-panel on the "structure".

225.32 The disconnecting means shall be installed either inside or outside of the building or structure served or where the conductors pass through the building or structure. The disconnecting means shall be at a readily accessible location nearest the point of entrance of the conductors. For the purposes of this section, the requirements in 230.6 shall be utilized.

While this doesn't absolutly require the disconnect to be mounted on the structure served, it does require it to be nearest the point of entrance of the conductors to the structure.
Don

 

[Bob NH]

I am designing the lighting, wp/gfi receptacle, and a outdoor panel for a pavillion. The pavillion has a concrete structure, with columns, and steel reinforcement at the base of the column. The panel will be remote (400 feet away), if I chose to use the existing panel.

Question, if the panel is 400 feet away, is it better to mount a small sub panel to one of the columns, and run a subfeeder to it, or should I just use the existing panel?

If you are last lady to leave the pavillion, and it is your job to turn off the lights and power and lock it off, will you want one place at the pavillion to throw the main breaker and lock it, or will you want to walk 400 ft to the existing panel, which may be in another locked building?

 

[Lady Engineer]

Thanks to you all, and I found a way to mount the panel...so, I'll just do that...thanks for all of your input.

Don, you have a point. I went to the site, and found out there's that exact panel, and I can mount it to the structure. I just have to have the mounted plate welded to the column, along with being bolted to it.

Thanks my fellow posters.

Lady