Preferred code cycle

[Little Bill]

What’s with the hate for TRs? IMO, they’re not a big deal - don’t really add significant cost, cause problems (unlike AFCIs), or are aesthetically objectionable (unlike in-use covers).

They have gotten better, but when they (some brands) were first introduced they were very hard to insert the plug. Most notably for elderly people or those with some type of disability.

 

[ptonsparky]

What’s with the hate for TRs? IMO, they’re not a big deal - don’t really add significant cost, cause problems (unlike AFCIs), or are aesthetically objectionable (unlike in-use covers).

Leviton TR were difficult to insert cord ends. My guys slowly switched me over to another brand. Eventually I noticed the difference and have not gone back. Leviton may have improved since, but too late. IDK about others but I suspect the same problem was the issue.

 

[James L]

Leviton TR were difficult to insert cord ends. My guys slowly switched me over to another brand. Eventually I noticed the difference and have not gone back. Leviton may have improved since, but too late. IDK about others but I suspect the same problem was the issue.

I was just going to reply with the same thing. Leviton are almost impossible to plug into. Pass & Seymour is the way to go, imho.

I haven't made the full switch because I get most of my stuff from Home Depot and there are so many locations it's just really really handy.

To get P & S devices, I either have to go out of my way to a Menards or go out of my way to a supply house. Or stock up if I find myself in one of those places

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

I would use the most recent code cycle.

I agree with you.
I'm not worried about the state or AHJ.
It's the insurance companies and lawyers if something goes horribly wrong.

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

I'm curious why

This is my reasoning:

I'm not worried about the state or AHJ.
It's the insurance companies and lawyers if something goes horribly wrong.

 

[Njonescontracting]

This is my reasoning:

I'm not worried about the state or AHJ.
It's the insurance companies and lawyers if something goes horribly wrong.

Just throwing it out there. If your AHJ is few cycles behind do you still build with current cycle? Obviously I wouldn't really think to build to anything prior to 14 cycle. Especially if there is any plan to sell any time soon. But I will agree. TR and Afci would be my choices to leave out.

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[James L]

just curious, how much handyman hack crap do you fine if you have no, permit,AHJ , or inspection. Sounds kinda cool ,but I see enough hack thing from my area , and we are heavily regulated.
I would use still do as post # 11stated

I see a lot of hack even crap when it's getting inspected. Mostly not using romex connectors at can lights, hiding splices behind sheetrock, stuff like that.

With no inspection, I'd expect to see doubled neutrals in panel if spaces were taken, and sconce lights without boxes.

There's what we call "Ozark wireman", a reference to guys who work in the Ozark mountain area, where there's no inspections. I've seen flying splices - a lot. Romex used outside, too, even strung through trees

 

[Njonescontracting]

I see a lot of hack even crap when it's getting inspected. Mostly not using romex connectors at can lights, hiding splices behind sheetrock, stuff like that.

With no inspection, I'd expect to see doubled neutrals in panel if spaces were taken, and sconce lights without boxes.

There's what we call "Ozark wireman", a reference to guys who work in the Ozark mountain area, where there's no inspections. I've seen flying splices - a lot. Romex used outside, too, even strung through trees

I am also in MO, I see quite a bit of this too. I am in st louis. And I also do alot of flips and rehabs for myself... The amount of crap work even in highly scrutinized areas is high. I have posted about this in the past and I would bet most of you have commented. The AHJ around here usually doesn't care. Even in the metro areas. If they do care, they will only be picky on certain things.

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[James L]

I am also in MO, I see quite a bit of this too. I am in st louis. And I also do alot of flips and rehabs for myself... The amount of crap work even in highly scrutinized areas is high. I have posted about this in the past and I would bet most of you have commented. The AHJ around here usually doesn't care. Even in the metro areas. If they do care, they will only be picky on certain things.

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I was thinking about you when I posted, wondering what you see on the other side of the state.

Of the 160+ municipalities here in the KC area, I can think of only 3 where guys grumble about working there because of how hard it is to pass an inspection. Independence, Mo. and Lee's Summit, Mo. - And then Lawrence, Ks., which is actually just a bit outside of the Metro area.

I've heard a lot, that you can't get away with anything in those cities.

I'm like....why the heck are you trying to get away with something in the first place? If you just make it your goal to be the best and do it right - everywhere - then you don't have anything to worry about when the inspectors know their stuff.

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

Just throwing it out there. If your AHJ is few cycles behind do you still build with current cycle? Obviously I wouldn't really think to build to anything prior to 14 cycle. Especially if there is any plan to sell any time soon. But I will agree. TR and Afci would be my choices to leave out.

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Probably not. I would wire to my jurisdictions code.

Working in Massachusetts. I believe this state accepts every new code change almost to a fault sometimes. Barring a few amendments.

I have typically look at the NEC as the minimum requirements. So I usually try to exceed them where I see fit. For example. I usually stick with the wire sized for it's a amperage rating. (It can get too cumbersome and costly to work with when larger than need be).

 

[garbo]

I have a house that I bid for a friend, with me helping him.

We have no state mandated code.
There will be no permit, no AHJ, no inspection.

Curious which code cycle you would wire the house to? As a whole, my favorite would be 1996, with some tweaking

I figured no AFCI anywhere
No more than 2 bathroom receptacles per 20 amp circuit
20 amp circuit for garage receps
Smoke and CO detectors per most recent

What would you do?

For liability sake I would use the latest code and see if you can get it inspected. I replaced luminares where old ones were and still pulled a petmit because they had handicapped people performing a few hours of work 3 or 4 days a week. My inspector told me in this case a permit was nit required but a smart move.

 

[SSDriver]

Unfortunately alot of amendments are based on costs rather than safety. Just an unfortunate fact.

Same goes for code. Unfortunately a lot of the new code is based off profits and not actual safety. I still have not seen any proof that AFCIs work. States who have amended them out do not have higher house fire statistics.

 

[zcanyonboltz]

I would say 99...what were noticeable changes from 96 to 99?

 

[James L]

I would say 99...what were noticeable changes from 96 to 99?

I've never had any exposure to 99

For me, it's been 84, 90, 96, 02, 11, 17

 

[Njonescontracting]

I agree with you.
I'm not worried about the state or AHJ.
It's the insurance companies and lawyers if something goes horribly wrong.

Just a thought....and something I have never dealt with. If you are building a home does insurance have any say in what you have to do. Im sure you can build however you want. However, do you save a significant amount adding certain features such as afci, gfci, TR, wired smokes etc.... Costs more initially. But the savings could make it worth the investment. Just a thought.
Like I said I have no idea.

 

[mbrooke]

1984 was about right IMO, when the last legit changes came about (besides separate N/G of course).

Personally if I had my way:

Crow foot receptacles or the IEC-60906-1. GU sockets. Sleeved or guarded prongs, but no TR. No AFCIs, or GFCIs indoors. Circuit sized to disconnection time not exceeding 0.4 seconds in kitchens, bathrooms, basements, outdoors, ect 0.8 seconds everywhere else. All metal connected to a CPC where not part of a double insulated assembly, no exceptions. No minimum service disconnect size. Service entrance sized based off of 50% of the load calcs. 15 amp circuits where 20 is required now. 2 wire switch legs. Lax stapling after first staple above box. Receptacles every 5 feet, but not required where cords hanging from counters can be pulled by kids. Discretion left to the electrician on how many circuits, division, design, ect.

 

[romex jockey]

just curious, how much handyman hack crap do you fine if you have no, permit,AHJ , or inspection

come visit Vermont, the east coasts land code forgot......~RJ~

 

[romex jockey]

1984 was about right IMO, when the last legit changes came about (besides separate N/G of course).

Personally if I had my way:

Crow foot receptacles or the IEC-60906-1. GU sockets. Sleeved or guarded prongs, but no TR. No AFCIs, or GFCIs indoors. Circuit sized to disconnection time not exceeding 0.4 seconds in kitchens, bathrooms, basements, outdoors, ect 0.8 seconds everywhere else. All metal connected to a CPC where not part of a double insulated assembly, no exceptions. No minimum service disconnect size. Service entrance sized based off of 50% of the load calcs. 15 amp circuits where 20 is required now. 2 wire switch legs. Lax stapling after first staple above box. Receptacles every 5 feet, but not required where cords hanging from counters can be pulled by kids. Discretion left to the electrician on how many circuits, division, design, ect.

h*ll, why not some ring circuits and descending value RCD's ? ~RJ~

 

[mbrooke]

h*ll, why not some ring circuits and descending value RCD's ? ~RJ~

Rings are to not worth it IMO, they can easily become a hazard if broken and as I'm reading it to many get messed up with unfused spurs and the like.


RCDs are worth discussing imo, but as I see it, if the CPC is not likely to become disconnected and a fault on a portable appliance is removed in 0.4 seconds or less in wet locations no hazard of bodily injury exists.

Outdoors I'd be more tempted to use GFCIs/RCDs on the count that:

1) cords fray, making a hot to hand contact more likely.
2) more likely that a damaged cord will have a compromised CPC
3) Long extension cords can increase the opening time of the OCPD, making harm from an internal fault a probability.