Prevailing wages?

[don_resqcapt19]

In the Chicago area, in addition to PW rules, there is a big push for "responsible bidder" rules, that require an approved apprentice program along with a number of other things. It has been adopted by about 40 juristictions, including cities, counties and school districts.
Don

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

Construction workers, as opposed to factory workers, mechanics, office workers, janitors etc. who don't have special wage protections for their particular type or class of work.

And who don't need them, since their work is not temporary in nature and normally involves a static, permanent work enviroment.

 

[ITO]

And who don't need them, since their work is not temporary in nature and normally involves a static, permanent work enviroment.

I would say the pending threat of having your production unit sent over seas would make it a very dynamic temporary work environment, which historically in this county has proven to not be permanent. In case ya hadn't noticed a very large portion of our factory/production work has already been farmed out.

You would think we would do things to protect our own industry from big competitors like China or at the very least address the fix they maintain with thier exchange rates , but when we are borrowing money from them fast as we can, to pay for PW jobs and other pork, its hard to make trade rules they don't like.

 

[satcom]

And who don't need them, since their work is not temporary in nature and normally involves a static, permanent work enviroment.

I think the issue, of what some presume as high paying PW wages, are leaving out the down side of PW workers, they are working on goverment jobs, that were estimated with tight controls, which means the workers have to be very productive to meet the schedules, the PW jobs are not permanent work, when all is said and done, some permanent workers, have better conditions, and many times fair out better, with both, working conditions, and year end total pay.

Another issue is the contractors that work PW jobs, they have to expend an investement in planning, scheduling, a job with tight budgets and controls, the fat that some presume is in all goverment jobs, is not there, when you consider all the cost, related to following strict goverment contract provisions, your purchasing costs alone, can cripple the project if you don't have experience in that area.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

I would say the pending threat of having your production unit sent over seas would make it a very dynamic temporary work environment, which historically in this county has proven to not be permanent. In case ya hadn't noticed a very large portion of our factory/production work has already been farmed out.

Until is was farmed out, it was quite permanent, wouldn't you say? I mean, Ford didn't move Detroit from State to State, did they? And an employer in say... NYC isn't going to be too keen on hiring 1000 office staff workers from around the country, who agree to work for 4 months and then take 8 off, right?

You would think we would do things to protect our own industry from big competitors like China or at the very least address the fix they maintain with thier exchange rates , but when we are borrowing money from them fast as we can, to pay for PW jobs and other pork, its hard to make trade rules they don't like.

I'm curious why someone would advocate trade restrictions against a foreign competitor who has the advantage of utilizing cheap labor from an area with a lower cost of, and standard of living, while at the same time decry an entity such as a local school district or municipality or even state from passing legislation that protect's it's local residents from that very same threat?

As for the philosophical, political, and socioeconomic aspect of this discussion, I don't believe that "free trade" or "free market" is the equivilant to fair. Freedom, in it's absolute sense, doesn't necessarily equate to fair and in fact, is more closely associated to anarchy. Obviously, we do not live and work in a free society, we're simply afforded freedoms with many restrictions. If we were free, then you wouldn't need a license to contract. I'm sure you approve of that loss of "freedom" to others. I know I do.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

I think the issue, of what some presume as high paying PW wages, are leaving out the down side of PW workers, they are working on goverment jobs, that were estimated with tight controls, which means the workers have to be very productive to meet the schedules, the PW jobs are not permanent work, when all is said and done, some permanent workers, have better conditions, and many times fair out better, with both, working conditions, and year end total pay.

Another issue is the contractors that work PW jobs, they have to expend an investement in planning, scheduling, a job with tight budgets and controls, the fat that some presume is in all goverment jobs, is not there, when you consider all the cost, related to following strict goverment contract provisions, your purchasing costs alone, can cripple the project if you don't have experience in that area.

As a contractor heavily involved in PW work once told me, it's 90% paperwork and 10% electrical work.

 

[ITO]

Until is was farmed out, it was quite permanent, wouldn't you say?

Key word being ‘was’.

I mean, Ford didn't move Detroit from State to State, did they?

Not yet but there is not a US made car that is 100% made in the US. They may not have moved the plant but they have outsourced lots of components.

I'm curious why someone would advocate trade restrictions against a foreign competitor who has the advantage of utilizing cheap labor from an area with a lower cost of, and standard of living, while at the same time decry an entity such as a local school district or municipality or even state from passing legislation that protect's it's local residents from that very same threat?

Local school districts don’t pass PW laws.

That's just spin and it is not at all the “very same threat”, this issue is quite a bit more complex than that. I am not advocating trade restrictions, I am advocating fair trade; there is a difference.

1) Unlike every other currency in the world where the value of their currency is dictated by the open market, the Chinese government sets the value of their Yaun, they can do this because they are under valuing.

Up until July of 2005 the Chinese government pegged the Yaun (Chinese dollar) to a fixed value that was lower value than the US dollar. The intent was to make the dollar go much further in China than they Yaun would go in the US, which means we would buy more goods from them then they would buy from us.

While the Yaun is no longer pegged, its is still set within a fixed percentage range of the US dollar and is still basically undervalued, and one result is we still have a major trade deficit.

2) China has restrictive trade practices in mainland China, which include a wide array of barriers to foreign goods and services, often aimed at protecting state-owned enterprises. These practices include high tariffs, lack of transparency, requiring firms to obtain special permission to import goods, inconsistent application of laws and regulations, and leveraging technology from foreign firms in return for market access. Mainland China's accession to World Trade Organization is meant to help address these barriers, but so far it has yielded little other than using a percentage to peg the Yaun.

3) So why do we put up with the inequities of out current trade agreements? Because our government spends more money each year then we collect in taxes. To make up the difference we just sell Treasury Bonds, and China is only to happy to buy them from us. Currently it is estimated that China owns more than $1,000,000,000,000 (12- Zeros…as in Trillion) dollars in US is T-bonds. If we pass a law they don’t like, they just threaten or even act on selling off large chunks of it which in turn screws up our dollar value.

As for the philosophical, political, and socioeconomic aspect of this discussion, I don't believe that "free trade" or "free market" is the equivilant to fair. Freedom, in it's absolute sense, doesn't necessarily equate to fair and in fact, is more closely associated to anarchy.

Yes, but its is a controlled anarchy.

 

[iwire]

Gentlemen please limit the discussion directly to PW issues and how they effect electrical contractors and employees.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

Key word being ?was?.
Not yet but there is not a US made car that is 100% made in the US. They may not have moved the plant but they have outsourced lots of components.

Agreed. This was made possible for many reasons. Free trade agreements (which we both agree are not "fair") and a source of cheaper labor. Infrastructure improvements in areas with access to cheap labor, lax or nonexistant ecological restrictions, and better access to raw material.

I do not believe that if Ford, or Harley-Davidson, or Westinghouse had access to 5.00 an hour, zero-liability labor in the United States it would have changed this trend any. To wit, Nike moves it's production to another country as soon as the labor demands more than .50 cents per hour.

Local school districts don?t pass PW laws.

That's just spin and it is not at all the ?very same threat?, this issue is quite a bit more complex than that. I am not advocating trade restrictions, I am advocating fair trade; there is a difference.

That's correct school districts don't pass legislation. I was confusing the cause with the effect.

Like you, I'm advocating fair trade as well. IMHO, anything "fair" must be equal, and can't harm anyone. If trade were fair, there would be and could be no deficit and no surplus. So if China has 10 million in computers to sell the US, then China must also purchase 10 million in consumer goods from us. (Not 10 million in raw material, to be processed by cheaper labor into 100 million worth of more exportable consumer goods.)

 

[iwire]

Please look at post #68

 

[JohnE]

My understanding is that a job on property owned by a municipality in MA is pw only if it goes out to bid. And I don't know what the requirements are for which jobs go out to bid.

As an example, we did some work in a school changing ballasts. I was told that the agency awarding the bid is to supply me with the pw rate. After a lot of digging, I found out from someone in the know at City Hall (it was a city) that because the job was not put out to bid, the job was not pw.

So in the OP, very good chance it was not pw.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

My understanding is that a job on property owned by a municipality in MA is pw only if it goes out to bid. And I don't know what the requirements are for which jobs go out to bid.

Different entities have different standards. Sometimes, a State or the Feds will determine that if a job or contract is going to exceed a certian amount, it must be put out to bid. And there are exceptions for emergency work. But even for emergency situations, there's usually a list of pre-approved contacts, and in order to get on that list the contractors would have to agree that if the work exceeds a predetermined limit, PW's will be paid.

As an example, we did some work in a school changing ballasts. I was told that the agency awarding the bid is to supply me with the pw rate. After a lot of digging, I found out from someone in the know at City Hall (it was a city) that because the job was not put out to bid, the job was not pw.

So in the OP, very good chance it was not pw.