Price of dual function AFCI/GFCI devices

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mbrooke said:
Even the pros are buying from Home Depot :lol:
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That same boss I just mentioned spends about $120K at HD every year, the rest is with a local supplier. Reason being is that most of his work was in an area with no convenient suppliers and he's on the contractor program and never pays shelf price for anything anyway.
 
peter d said:
That same boss I just mentioned spends about $120K at HD every year, the rest is with a local supplier. Reason being is that most of his work was in an area with no convenient suppliers and he's on the contractor program and never pays shelf price for anything anyway.
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Even then I've seen wire actually being cheaper. Load centers as well. Fittings and boxes are rip off though.
 
mbrooke said:
Even then I've seen wire actually being cheaper. Load centers as well. Fittings and boxes are rip off though.
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That is the case. But when the closest supplier is 30+ minutes away and you need something now, the time saved is a wash.

Now, can we steer this back to what an absolute scam the AFCI is. :thumbsup:
 
mbrooke said:
Even then I've seen wire actually being cheaper. Load centers as well. Fittings and boxes are rip off though.
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mbrooke said:
Well, I think that is self evident when a 5ma AFCIs cost more than 30ma AFCIs.
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supply and demand thing and volume purchased/sold are factors. Why are 4 foot fluorescent lamps (even back when they were all T12) less cost then two and three foot lamps? Materials wise they should cost less.

Boxes and fittings - my guess is they are pretty good price on some of the highest volume sellers. Not so much on their lower volume sellers.
 
What irks me is that when afci technology was new and expensive, we were told the price would drop after the initial R&D investment was paid down.

Well here we are at least a decade later. The technology is no longer new, and the prices have increased....I recall paying $38 back in the beginning of this, and have never seen anything under $40 in years. It's clearly profiteering thanks to the code councils voting to make yet another marginal "safety" measure a requirement.

re: big box vs supply houses. In my area pricing is all over the map. I recently bought some Eaton CH hubs. I happened to see the size I needed in the local big box, but was at the supply house counter and nowhere near the big box when I needed them. $16 apiece! Two days later I was in the big box, and went over to see their price. $6.84.

My my issue with both supply houses and big box is reduced stock at both. Neither big box ever has everything needed for even a small residential job. The supply houses around here tend to have multiple locations and stock certain brands in each. Keeping track of who has what is exhausting. As I do electrically work as only part of the services I offer, it isn't economical to stock very much. But it's hard to strike that balance of saving time running for materials and paying for stock that may not be used in a timely manner.

oh well, #firstworldproblems
 
kwired said:
supply and demand thing and volume purchased/sold are factors. Why are 4 foot fluorescent lamps (even back when they were all T12) less cost then two and three foot lamps? Materials wise they should cost less.

Boxes and fittings - my guess is they are pretty good price on some of the highest volume sellers. Not so much on their lower volume sellers.
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What is so different other than programming- if not a cut jumper in the circuit board.
 
mbrooke said:
What is so different other than programming- if not a cut jumper in the circuit board.
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No matter what the difference is - a different part number needs it's own warehouse space, production run, etc. The one you sell more of typically is the one that will sell for less when many other aspects of the item are otherwise the same thing.

When you have the market somewhat cornered - you can still set price wherever you want to some degree. There is only four manufacturers for this kind of product - they have a lot of control over what is available and what they will charge for it.

You also have middle man trying to take some mark up on it. If big box store buys in larger quantities then your supply house - they possibly get better price on their purchase amount. If big box store doesn't sell as many DF breakers - then they aren't going to purchase at same volume level.

Big box seems to give you better price on larger quantity on many items these days.

Supply house are more likely to give you better price when purchasing an entire project on one order/quote then if you went in and purchased all the same items individually.
 
kwired said:
No matter what the difference is - a different part number needs it's own warehouse space, production run, etc. The one you sell more of typically is the one that will sell for less when many other aspects of the item are otherwise the same thing.

When you have the market somewhat cornered - you can still set price wherever you want to some degree. There is only four manufacturers for this kind of product - they have a lot of control over what is available and what they will charge for it.

You also have middle man trying to take some mark up on it. If big box store buys in larger quantities then your supply house - they possibly get better price on their purchase amount. If big box store doesn't sell as many DF breakers - then they aren't going to purchase at same volume level.

Big box seems to give you better price on larger quantity on many items these days.

Supply house are more likely to give you better price when purchasing an entire project on one order/quote then if you went in and purchased all the same items individually.
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Time may prove this theory right if Dual function breakers fall to the price of regular AFCIs. Till then I will suspect more is at play.
 
Lately I have been using DF in most cases where both AFCI/GFCI protection required. DF breaker alone is less then an AFCI breaker plus a GFCI receptacle, plus GFCI in some of those instances isn't always easy to make readily accessible.
 
I just checked the prices at HD in my area for HOM breakers. The DF's are $8 more than the AF's. Through my supplier I get the AF ~$4 less than HD. The DF's are the same price. I need to have my sales person talk to Square D about lowering the price for the DF's.

I have been thinking about using the DF's in more places. I primarily use them for dishwasher circuits. Still using AF's with GFCI receptacles for the kitchen counter.

I believe I get Legrand TR GFCI receptacles for $12 so the price difference is a wash.
 
Craigv said:
What irks me is that when afci technology was new and expensive, we were told the price would drop after the initial R&D investment was paid down.

Well here we are at least a decade later. The technology is no longer new, and the prices have increased...m
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Hey you weren’t supposed to remember that !


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Craigv said:
What irks me is that when afci technology was new and expensive, we were told the price would drop after the initial R&D investment was paid down.

Well here we are at least a decade later. The technology is no longer new, and the prices have increased....I recall paying $38 back in the beginning of this, and have never seen anything under $40 in years. It's clearly profiteering thanks to the code councils voting to make yet another marginal "safety" measure a requirement.
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Not saying you are right or wrong, but is possible they didn't take a price increase (or as much of one) when other things did?

Lots of consumer products out there that increased in price over the years, and some that didn't seem to change as much - until you look at what you are getting today for a similar price you did a few years ago. Shrink the product and charge the same price is still inflation.

I don't know where AFCI's are being assembled, if not in the US, someday if they move those operations to other countries it may not bring price down, but maybe keeps it from rising to some extent?
 
kwired said:
Not saying you are right or wrong, but is possible they didn't take a price increase (or as much of one) when other things did?

Lots of consumer products out there that increased in price over the years, and some that didn't seem to change as much - until you look at what you are getting today for a similar price you did a few years ago. Shrink the product and charge the same price is still inflation.

I don't know where AFCI's are being assembled, if not in the US, someday if they move those operations to other countries it may not bring price down, but maybe keeps it from rising to some extent?
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All of those factors are absolutely plausible explanations for current pricing. Just one additional thought: These devices are treading firmly in software/firmware tech territory, which all have costly R&D, and so the retail pricing should drop *significantly* when R&D are paid off.

Consider another tech item....flat panel LCD tv's, which were developing a market right around the same time as afci tech. Their prices have dropped from about $3,000 for a 42" screen to about $3-400 today. And they were strictly market-driven, not pushed along by legal requirements....
 
Craigv said:
All of those factors are absolutely plausible explanations for current pricing. Just one additional thought: These devices are treading firmly in software/firmware tech territory, which all have costly R&D, and so the retail pricing should drop *significantly* when R&D are paid off.

Consider another tech item....flat panel LCD tv's, which were developing a market right around the same time as afci tech. Their prices have dropped from about $3,000 for a 42" screen to about $3-400 today. And they were strictly market-driven, not pushed along by legal requirements....
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Though many TV's under different names may possibly have some common sources for components - there is likely more then just four major players making them. There really isn't much competition in the AFCI marketplace.
 
kwired said:
Though many TV's under different names may possibly have some common sources for components - there is likely more then just four major players making them. There really isn't much competition in the AFCI marketplace.
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Exactly. Between nil competition and a friend in the code council, it's like shooting fish in a barrel. Who said manufacturing is a tough business??? ;)
 
After all the trouble I've seen with DF's over the past 10 months or so, I think the AFCI breaker and GFCI receptacle is the way to go where it's possible to use them. Sometimes you're stuck with DF's for disposals and dishwashers.
 
Love the new BRAFGF115 and 120’s

Love the new BRAFGF115 and 120’s

Knuckle Dragger said:
Does anyone know of any difference in quality or function between these two Eaton BR DF breakers. The BRAFGF115CS and the BRLAFGF115CS the physical size?
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We had a lot of call backs on the Gen. 1 BFLAFGF115 and 120’s, they didn’t cause problems for about a year and then we had batches of them go bad. They only have Gen.2 BRLAFGF115 and 120’s available now and we have had zero problems with them. However I always wished they could fit the components in the same smaller size frame as the combo AFCIs. Now and you probably have a better idea as to exactly when, but I would say the last 4-6 months the BRAFGF115 and 120’s have been available (in the same size frame as the arc faults), and I noticed on the side label that they are Gen.3; so I am assuming best currently available product from Eaton. I have actually been toying with the idea of using only DF’s even in places that don’t need the GFCI protection, since the cost is only slightly more and I could pitch the safety angle, and stop worrying about stocking 15 and 20amp combo AFCIs.

(Regarding the OP) We have been using Eaton’s BR dual function breakers for as long as they have been available. Being the cheapskate that I am, the thought of a Cutler Hammer BRAFGF115= $45.73 versus a Cutler Hammer BRCAF115 $40.93 + Leviton GFTR1-W $18.92 = total cost of $59.85 made it an easy decision.
 
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