Professional Electrical Engineer

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rbalex

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Mission Viejo, CA
Occupation
Professional Electrical Engineer
The State of California has TWO sets of rules:


  1. The Professional Engineers Act
  2. The Board of Professional Engineers, Land Surveyors and Geologists "Board Rules"

They both have the force of law since the Board Rules are approved by the State Legislature. The magic term is Responsible Charge. (Do a word search in both - there a plenty of "hits")

They are both sufficiently ambiguous and convoluted that it still takes a court to determine who goes to jail for a faulty design. In personal discussions with two Board Members and several staffers over the years, no one really seems to actually know for sure.

I worked for a company where I was once approached to seal drawings in an "emergency". The guy actually stood there waiting for me to seal them. I told him, "Come back in a week or two." He complained to my boss who told me the company indemnifies me for errors and omissions. I already knew that (I still have the letter saying so) but said, "And who goes to jail for me?" - I was never approached again.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
The State of California has TWO sets of rules:


  1. The Professional Engineers Act
  2. The Board of Professional Engineers, Land Surveyors and Geologists "Board Rules"

They both have the force of law since the Board Rules are approved by the State Legislature. The magic term is Responsible Charge. (Do a word search in both - there a plenty of "hits")

They are both sufficiently ambiguous and convoluted that it still takes a court to determine who goes to jail for a faulty design. In personal discussions with two Board Members and several staffers over the years, no one really seems to actually know for sure.

I worked for a company where I was once approached to seal drawings in an "emergency". The guy actually stood there waiting for me to seal them. I told him, "Come back in a week or two." He complained to my boss who told me the company indemnifies me for errors and omissions. I already knew that (I still have the letter saying so) but said, "And who goes to jail for me?" - I was never approached again.

I was once approached by a manager on the day before I left for a vacation about a design a coworker was to finish up while I was gone that needed my review and PE stamp. He wanted me to give him my computer password so that he could electronically affix my seal to the drawings in my absence.

Um, no.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
I was once approached by a manager on the day before I left for a vacation about a design a coworker was to finish up while I was gone that needed my review and PE stamp. He wanted me to give him my computer password so that he could electronically affix my seal to the drawings in my absence.

Um, no.

Some plans were due to be finished up while I was on vacation. They needed to go out as soon as they were finished. I took my seal with me on vacation, they FedEx'd the drawings to me, I reviewed, signed and sealed them and sent them back via FedEx..
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Some plans were due to be finished up while I was on vacation. They needed to go out as soon as they were finished. I took my seal with me on vacation, they FedEx'd the drawings to me, I reviewed, signed and sealed them and sent them back via FedEx..

That would not have worked in my case; I was on an island in the Caribbean diving and fishing.

I was not even reachable by email or telephone; that's what I told them, anyway. :D
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
That would not have worked in my case; I was on an island in the Caribbean diving and fishing.

I was not even reachable by email or telephone; that's what I told them, anyway. :D

Looking back on it, they should have given me back about a half day's worth of vacation for my troubles. Well, I don't work there any more.
 

iceworm

Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
Location
North of the 65 parallel
Occupation
EE (Field - as little design as possible)
So what happens if the p e dies 5 minutes before he is able to fix the seal to the drawings?

Two methods I know of:
1) Hire another PE, pay them to affirm all the calculations, equipment selection, design, and field conditions - yeah, way more than a review.

2) Hire Jack's and Jill's Roadside PE Service to stamp anything you give them for $200/sheet (unless it is $100/sheet)

Yep. I'm a PE and I won't sign someone else's work either.
 

pv_n00b

Senior Member
Location
CA, USA
Occupation
Professional Electrical Engineer
Great discussion. I'll add my two cents. I post anonymously to the board so you can take my input for what you might think it is worth. I'm a PE in 4 states. They all use basically the same wording for their business and professions code that covers PEs since most states adopt model language put out by NCEES. They all say basically that the PE can only seal documents prepared by them or under their responsible charge. The definition of responsible charge is where it gets interesting. All the states I am licensed in consider that the PE has to be involved in the engineering decisions for the project from the beginning to be in responsible charge. Doing a design review and stamp for a 3rd party design where the PE was not involved in the design process is not considered to be in responsible charge. This is considered plan stamping and is illegal.

I can add a little more in that I consult for BPELS in California on enforcement cases against PEs and people who try to act like PEs, reviewing the cases and rendering my professional opinion as a PE on the merits of the case. I have had cases where a PE was charged with plan stamping and while it's very hard to prove, there are some stupid PEs out there that make it obvious and they have been found in violation. Just a friendly heads up, don't end up on my desk for enforcement review with the excuse that you did a design review and that was all that was required to be in responsible charge. That won't fly.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Great discussion. I'll add my two cents. I post anonymously to the board so you can take my input for what you might think it is worth. I'm a PE in 4 states. They all use basically the same wording for their business and professions code that covers PEs since most states adopt model language put out by NCEES. They all say basically that the PE can only seal documents prepared by them or under their responsible charge. The definition of responsible charge is where it gets interesting. All the states I am licensed in consider that the PE has to be involved in the engineering decisions for the project from the beginning to be in responsible charge. Doing a design review and stamp for a 3rd party design where the PE was not involved in the design process is not considered to be in responsible charge. This is considered plan stamping and is illegal.

I can add a little more in that I consult for BPELS in California on enforcement cases against PEs and people who try to act like PEs, reviewing the cases and rendering my professional opinion as a PE on the merits of the case. I have had cases where a PE was charged with plan stamping and while it's very hard to prove, there are some stupid PEs out there that make it obvious and they have been found in violation. Just a friendly heads up, don't end up on my desk for enforcement review with the excuse that you did a design review and that was all that was required to be in responsible charge. That won't fly.

IMO that is a bit too restrictive. As long as a design is safe, compliant with all relevant codes, and adherent to all local jurisdictional requirements, what difference does it make how it got that way?
 

pv_n00b

Senior Member
Location
CA, USA
Occupation
Professional Electrical Engineer
IMO that is a bit too restrictive. As long as a design is safe, compliant with all relevant codes, and adherent to all local jurisdictional requirements, what difference does it make how it got that way?

Well, it's the law in many states and as we all know sometimes we don't all agree on the law, but it's still the law. A lot can be found on the subject by an internet search for "plan stamping." I will add that I see plan stamping PEs doing code reviews of designs and saying that is all that needs to be done, but that is not the sum total of what engineers do. Trained monkeys can do code review, PEs provide engineering. PEs sell themselves short and damage the profession when saying PEs are just responsible for verifying safety and code compliance.

I'm most familiar with CA requirements and this is their definition of responsible charge from the board rules:

404.1. Responsible Charge – Professional Engineering .
(a) As used in the Professional Engineers Act, the term “responsible charge” directly relates to the extent of control a professional engineer is required to maintain while exercising independent control and direction of professional engineering services or creative work and to the engineering decisions which can be made only by a professional engineer.
(1) Extent of Control. The extent of control necessary to be in responsible charge shall be such that the engineer:

(A) Makes or reviews and approves the engineering decisions defined and described in subdivision (a)(2) below.
(B) In making or reviewing and approving the engineering decisions, determines the applicability of design criteria and technical recommendations provided by others before incorporating such criteria or recommendations.
(2) Engineering Decisions. The term “responsible charge” relates to engineering decisions within the purview of the Professional Engineers Act.
Engineering decisions which must be made by and are the responsibility of the engineer in responsible charge are those decisions concerning permanent or temporary projects which could create a hazard to life, health, property , or public welfare, and may include, but are not limited to:
(A) The selection of engineering alternatives to be investigated and the comparison of alternatives for the project.
(B) The selection or development of design standards or methods, and materials to be used.
(C) The decisions related to the preparation of engineering plans, specifications, calculations, reports, and other documents for the engineered works.
(D) The selection or development of techniques or methods of testing to be used in evaluating materials or completed projects , either new or existing.
(E) The review and evaluation of manufacturing, fabrication or construction methods or controls to be used and the evaluation of test res ults, materials and workmanship insofar as they affect the character and integrity of the completed project .
(F) The development and control of operating and maintenance procedures.
(3) Reviewing and Approving Engineering Decisions. In making or reviewing and approving engineering decisions, the engineer shall be physically present or shall review and approve through the use of communication devices the engineering decisions prior to their implementation.

(b) Responsible Charge Criteria. In order to evaluate whether an engineer is in responsible charge, the following must be considered:
The professional engineer who signs engineering documents must be capable of answering questions asked by individuals who are licensed by the Board in the appropriate branch of professional engineering relevant to the project and who are fully competent and proficient by education and experience in the field or fields of professional engineering relevant to the project. These questions would be relevant to the engineering decisions made during the individual’s participation in the project, and in sufficient detail to leave little question as to the engineer’s technical knowledge of the engineering performed. It is not necessary to defend decisions as in an adversarial situation, but only to demonstrate that the individual in responsible charge made, or reviewed and approved, them and possessed sufficient knowledge of the project to make, or review and approve, them.
Examples of questions to be answered by the engineer could relate to criteria for design, methods of analysis, methods of manufacture and construction, selection of materials and systems, economics of alternate solutions, and environmental considerations. The individual should be able to clearly express the extent of control and how it is exercised and to demonstrate that the engineer is answerable within said extent of control.

Back to my exposition. The PE can "make" the engineering decisions or "review and approve" the engineering decisions. This is where PEs doing plan stamping slip up. Being given a finished set of plans to review would not let the PE review the engineering decisions because all the information that goes into those decisions is not captured in the plans. That information also comes from site walk downs, meetings with the owners and project developers, developing the equipment specifications, and other background information that never makes it into the final plans. In order to review and approve the plans, the PE would have to be privy to all the information needed to create the plans in the first place. Maybe the PE can do a codes and standards review since they don't need to know much about the engineering decisions to do that, but that's not being in responsible charge.

Is there a legitimate way to do a review and stamp project? Sure, but the PE has to have all the information on the project just as they would if they were doing all the engineering design from scratch. They need to understand all the engineering decisions that were made that resulted in the plans they are given, they need to approve those decisions or have the ability to have the plans revised. But this will probably not be in the client's budget since they want a review and stamp that is cheap. Once the PE adds up all the costs of being in responsible charge the client is gone looking for a cheap plan stamper.

All that being said, there are a lot of PEs out there doing plan stamping for a few hundred dollars a sheet. It's quick money that many ethically challenged PEs working on their own are willing to take. I get regular calls from contractors looking for a cheap stamp on their "perfect" designs that don't really need any review. Doing it is bad for the engineering profession and personally, I enjoy seeing a plan stamper go down in an enforcement case.
 
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ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems


All that being said, there are a lot of PEs out there doing plan stamping for a few hundred dollars a sheet. It's quick money that many ethically challenged PEs working on their own are willing to take. I get regular calls from contractors looking for a cheap stamp on their "perfect" designs that don't really need any review. Doing it is bad for the engineering profession and personally, I enjoy seeing a plan stamper go down in an enforcement case.

Nothing gets an automatic stamp from me; I resent the implication that I am "ethically challenged". I am nothing of the sort; no design gets my stamp unless it is done as I would have done it myself. My reviews are a very deep dive, and irrespective of who made them the engineering decisions embedded in the design are solid by the time I am done with it. That's a broad brush you are wielding; you know nothing about me or the designs that I have sealed.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
Nothing gets an automatic stamp from me; I resent the implication that I am "ethically challenged". I am nothing of the sort; no design gets my stamp unless it is done as I would have done it myself. My reviews are a very deep dive, and irrespective of who made them the engineering decisions embedded in the design are solid by the time I am done with it. That's a broad brush you are wielding; you know nothing about me or the designs that I have sealed.

Not only that but different disciplines have very different ranges of engineering design judgement. Fire alarm designs are highly prescriptive, and about the only thing you have to make a judgement call on is whether the interior of a parking garage needs weatherproof notification appliances.
 

pv_n00b

Senior Member
Location
CA, USA
Occupation
Professional Electrical Engineer
Nothing gets an automatic stamp from me; I resent the implication that I am "ethically challenged". I am nothing of the sort; no design gets my stamp unless it is done as I would have done it myself. My reviews are a very deep dive, and irrespective of who made them the engineering decisions embedded in the design are solid by the time I am done with it. That's a broad brush you are wielding; you know nothing about me or the designs that I have sealed.

I never said you were ethically challenged, I said plan stampers were. If you feel that applies to you then that's on you. Just be ready to back up your review in an enforcement case, you will have to show your work then. It's your license on the line, do what you want. I'm trying to educate others here.
 
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