Project Manuals/Specs..

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sparky252

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Project Manuals/Specs...terms used interchangeably?

I've read it several times and did find some useful info but it was not the easiest reading.

Any tips/advice for successfully using it?

*alot of generic info like perfect installation required, clean/dust equipment, etc.

I guess I am trying to ask what or what amount of info I can expect to glean from a project manual. And, if conflicts w/ prints, then favor project manual over drawings? right.

Question: Liquidtight flexible NM was listed under section 16111-1 but not mentioned any more. Contractor did encourage me to use this for the direct flexible connections to special equipment vs sealtite. But I don't see it listed later under damp or dry indoor locations.
 
95% of the spec will be a useless waste of ink.

The remaining 5% will cost your dearly if you not paying attention.

Two suggestions, post-it notes and highlighters.

Read the spec carefully, when you see something that is important to you highlight and book mark the page with a post it not, you can write some info on the post it note where it sticks out of the specs so it works like code book tabs.
 
sparky252 said:
Thanks Iwire!!!!

that's what I was guessing about the 95% wasted ink.
Click to expand...

It could be, but remember the whole book is written to cover their a**.

You may go the whole job and think everything is fine, pass inspections etc....,
then when you want your final payment and the job is finished, the electrical engineer shows up for a walk thru. Guess what, he has the spec book in his hand and he writes up a 4 page punch list. You won't have a leg to stand on because you signed a contract stating that you would comply with the plans AND the specs.
 
I agree with Jim, even though I find a lot of it of no specific use you have to go through it and understand it.

Much of it is repetitive but there is info in there.

It's not funny when they specified a specific product and you did not notice it or did not account for the lead time to get it.
 
Yep, you'll find that there is no sympathy for the electrician, if you use something other than what was specced they will think you are trying to use sub-standard materials and pocket more money!

One job we did had a Lithonia "Panelmax" specced as a lighting control panel. When it came time for submittals, Lithonia said the "Panelmax" was being replaced with a better panel. Guess what, the engineer refused the new one and Lithonia had to furnish the old "Panelmax", even though they had a better product available. The engineer thought it was a scam to use a cheaper product!
 
Sparky,
If the raceway spec you are looking at is formatted per the CSI configuration, Part 2 will tell you material specs, such as what type of non-metallic liquid tight you may use. Part 3 will tell you where you can use it, such as outdoors, not exposed to physical damage.
I disagree with the previous posters in that when edited by a proficient engineer, every bit of the spec is important and will cost you a lot on $$$ if not followed. Just my opinion.
 
ron said:
Sparky,
If the raceway spec you are looking at is formatted per the CSI configuration, Part 2 will tell you material specs...
Click to expand...

HUH! Humph! :) The CSI part? Probably don't stand for Crime Scene Investigation, right? :)

Hang on a sec---


(Construction Specifications Institute...love search engines when they find the answer fast).

I believe it is. In my example, the conduit I wanted to use was only mentioned in Part 1 but not mentioned in Part 3 Execution (when/where to use it). I think I'll use my 2nd choice that is listed in part 1 & 3 to be safe.
 
From the other side of the fence.. :) I spend many hours editing a spec to make sure it is relevant to a project. A word of advice - don't give the drawings to your lighting rep or elect distributor WITHOUT the spec. It will save us both time and money avoiding resubmittals.

About which governs - specs or drawings? Somewhere that should be defined which governs. Probably Division 1.

Regarding the conduit - does it state anywhere that all raceways shall be steel? Just a thought. Good luck.

CSI format: Part 2 = what to buy, Part 3 = where to use it.
 
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I'll cross reference specs w/ prints and other details thoroughly again. Thanks for the Lighting advice. Some of the advice I can start applying before Phase 2 starts....converting 1-man patient rooms to 2 in this hospital (22 rooms)....mainly headwalls/nurse call system.

I'm afraid to even glance at those prints now.
 
Engineers tend to like to restate the obvious. As much as I like to think we don't need to do it, along comes another storybook spec. FYI: Specs, drawings, cut sheets etc, are all part of what is called the Contract Documents. Anything listed or included that was agreed to by the GC is fair game. Make sure you get a copy of everything, not just what the GC thinks you should have. Often times there can be electrical/control requirements in the mechanical section, that the EC invariably gets screwed on. You also have to remember, that the Contract with the Owner is between the GC and the Owner, your Contract is with the GC. Make him uphold his end of the bargain, and don't let him pass the buck. If he doesnt' have the answer you need, make him get it. If you guess, and your worng, there is a good chance the engineer will not be so forgiving.

If their is a conflict, and the spec is not clear as to what takes precendence, then issue an RFI (request for information) to the GC. One of the biggest mistakes I see EC's do is offer a solution with the RFI. DON'T. Make the GC pass it along to the engineer for an answer to the question, and be very speccific, we engineers are NOT mind readers, and most don't have a good understanding of the field work.

Make sure your cutsheets are very clear, as towhat is provided. As an example, if you send me a cut sheet with 4 items on it, and ony one applies, but the other 3 are not crossed out, I will automatically reject it. It is not the engineers job to figure out what your submitting, nor do we have the hours in the budget to do it.
 
Thank you Kingpb!!

Lots of info and advice. You suggest not offering a solution w/ the RFI. I would like to hear why? Would it be that the safest solution to get paid for/not shot down by engineer is to get it from himself...the proverbial hores' mouth? Or, it's their job not mine?
 
There are multiple reasons you don't want to offer a solution.

First, engineer's don't like to be wrong. Any question asked is at first, met with disdain, before rationale sets in, and he starts thinking more clearly. Offering a solution, before you know the answer can be irritating, since you are basically saying, "hey engineer, you made a mistake, and I know more, so I'll fix it" Chances are your RFI will be met with response that will not be in your best interest. Keep in mind, he may be right and you may have misinterpreted the design, which makes your "fix" unnecessary, and now the engineer thinks he's going to have to hold your hand.

Second, an RFI is a "Request for Information" so, ask a question, don't give an answer. Also, don't ask multiple questions on the same RFI. One question, one RFI. This may seem like a bunch of paperwork, but when multiple questions show up on the same RFI, the answer will become diluted and you may end up having to issue another one for further clarification. Keep um simple and keep um separate.

Third, when you issue an RFI with a fix, it becomes obvious your probably fishing for a Change Order (CO), and the engineer will formulate his response in a mnner hat says basically, it's your nickel, so don't tip your hand. Many RFI's are simply looking for clarification on the design. If after you receive the answer, it requires a CO, then you can offer your response, and include a breakdown/reasonable compensation of the costs for doing it. I guarantee if you issue a CO, and there is not a resonable breakout of charges it will automatically be rejected, and you'll be told its included. You have to remember the engineer answers to te Owner, he is going to try and do everything he can to twist it, and put it back on you. That's where you make the GC do his job.

Finally, the only exception to the rule, is if you are going to issue a fix with your RFI, you specifcally state on the RFI, that this is a no cost change and it will have no effect on the scope, schedule, or budget of the project.
 
Excellent Info!!

Excellent Info!!

Excellent, KingPeanutButter! :D (Is that what P.B. stands for?)

That's an answer I can get my teeth into. Man, this poor GC. He is so lucky I don't know what I am doing yet.

RFI Update: Today, I interrupted his chiseling tile to ask if he had any more answers for me. He said NO, but he "did finally get ahold of the architect". My first official, written RFI's were written 8 days ago.

I asked if he still had copies of the original RFI's and he said yes. I got carbon's and I want to xerox original pages for shop. So, I am thinking, why the heck does he still have possession of them???? How are they getting submitted to the the GC office to trickle to arch/engineer, whatever? He is sittin' on the evidence. Yo think this man of few mumbles is accurately relaying the info I need in a timely manner to the appropriate parties. Man, thinking about it right now I am alittle pissed (can I say that). And he is trying to push me. Tomorrow, I am, first thing, xeroxing and sending copies to my shop. No more secret questions. And he wants me to have a rough inspection tomorrow.

Foreman journal, here I come. I am going to document my butt of cause I don't think no one else is.
 
When you offer fixes you run the risk of assuming liability. The name of the game is to limit your exposure. It is the owner's responsibility to specify the scope of work. Hold them to it!

As far as what supercedes what (drawings or specs), you will usually find in the General or Supplemental Conditions of the specs.

One last thing, for any contract to be valid, it has to ensure the reasonable expectations of both parties. If you submit a substitution per the "agreement", and it is an equal or better to what was specified, the engineer must provide a valid reason why it is not accepted. His gut feelings that you are really trying to pull a James Bond on him will not fly in Arbitration. Also realize that certain CYA's engineers put into the CD's are not normally enforced because they violate the rule regarding "reasonable interpretation". As an example, we like to put in the CD's a note that basically says, "A contractor shall visit the site and become aware of all existing conditions and by submitting his bid he is acceptiing all conditions..." Which means that if there is anything we left out that cause extra work because you have to interface with an existing piece of the puzzle, you said at bid time you were aware of this so you cannot ask for a change order now. That is something that normally will not be enforced because it is unreasonable to expect a contractor to become aware of all the existing conditions that will affect his performance of the contract during a pre-bid job walk. Nor is it reasonable to expect a contractor will devote that much time to familarizing himself with a particular site for a contract he doesn't have yet. But this is treated on a case per case business. Don't make the mistake of broad-stroking this. Generally, if you sign an agreement, you must perform your part of the contract.

It wouldn't hurt to pick up a book on construction law. But they very from state to state.
 
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