- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
It is hard to tell from the picture but that ox doesn't look deep enough for 2 pair of 12/2 nm cables.
Properly mounted box?
- Thread starter JohnJ0906
- Start date
- Status
JohnJ0906
Senior Member
- Location
- Baltimore, MD
It looks like an 18 cu. I'm not sure that Carlon even makes one shallower anymore.
They do, but not in a nail-on with captive nails.
Edit to add:
Interesting. I wonder what they mean by the line in the lower left.....
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walkerj
Senior Member
- Location
- Baton Rouge
Vent on
Then how do you know it wasn't tested to be installed by screws thru the back?
You would be correct but you need to take into account the surface area provided in the back of the box. A decent mechanic can easily figure this out. It doesn't take a team of engineers and a $20K study to write a paper on it. That's just wasteful.
Even a simple electrician like myself can hold the box in his hand and determine if a screw thru the back will secure it properly. It's not rocket science. It's a plastic box not a space shuttle o ring.
People say and do dumb things all the time. ALL people do it and you are not immune so don't take it personally. If "dumb" is the worst thing you ever hear, consider yourself fortunate. Your thinly veiled rebuttal is no less insulting but I don't take offense because it has a ring of truth to it. I am one of those people that realizes he is fallible.
So, if the tested, listed boxes failed, why put all your stock into that process? Whether listed or feild improvised, things fail.
I have personally installed hundreds (maybe thousands??) of these particular boxes over the past 25 years. I am intimately familiar with them. It will not fail because of this installation. It may fail an inspection, but that's a whole different subject.....but it is the subject of my frustration with certain types of people.
Vent off.
Then how do you know it wasn't tested to be installed by screws thru the back?
You would be correct but you need to take into account the surface area provided in the back of the box. A decent mechanic can easily figure this out. It doesn't take a team of engineers and a $20K study to write a paper on it. That's just wasteful.
Even a simple electrician like myself can hold the box in his hand and determine if a screw thru the back will secure it properly. It's not rocket science. It's a plastic box not a space shuttle o ring.
People say and do dumb things all the time. ALL people do it and you are not immune so don't take it personally. If "dumb" is the worst thing you ever hear, consider yourself fortunate. Your thinly veiled rebuttal is no less insulting but I don't take offense because it has a ring of truth to it. I am one of those people that realizes he is fallible.
So, if the tested, listed boxes failed, why put all your stock into that process? Whether listed or feild improvised, things fail.
I have personally installed hundreds (maybe thousands??) of these particular boxes over the past 25 years. I am intimately familiar with them. It will not fail because of this installation. It may fail an inspection, but that's a whole different subject.....but it is the subject of my frustration with certain types of people.
Vent off.
Foolishly stepping in::::::::::
I find the discussion interesting, amd, as usual, there is validity on both sides.
I think one aspect of the situation is which hat one wears. Neither the electrcian or the inspector would ever do anything unsafe and both have liability over their heads.
It seems the longer you work the inspection angle, the more you use your basic tool, the NEC. Not to remove "common sense" from the picture, but when the Code states:
III. Construction Specifications
314.43 Nonmetallic Boxes.
Provisions for supports or other mounting means for nonmetallic boxes shall be outside of the box, or the box shall be constructed so as to prevent contact between the conductors in the box and the supporting screws.
from an inspectors standpoint, your job is to "follow the book". I ask myself "does this violate 314.43?" Seems it would, and if I eneded up in court I'd not have much of an excuse except "it seemed o.k. to me".
I find the discussion interesting, amd, as usual, there is validity on both sides.
I think one aspect of the situation is which hat one wears. Neither the electrcian or the inspector would ever do anything unsafe and both have liability over their heads.
It seems the longer you work the inspection angle, the more you use your basic tool, the NEC. Not to remove "common sense" from the picture, but when the Code states:
III. Construction Specifications
314.43 Nonmetallic Boxes.
Provisions for supports or other mounting means for nonmetallic boxes shall be outside of the box, or the box shall be constructed so as to prevent contact between the conductors in the box and the supporting screws.
from an inspectors standpoint, your job is to "follow the book". I ask myself "does this violate 314.43?" Seems it would, and if I eneded up in court I'd not have much of an excuse except "it seemed o.k. to me".
- Location
- Simi Valley, CA
Could be a violation of 314.23(A)(1)
Whoops didn't read the whole thread or far enough in the book, I'll agree with Augie, that's the code section I was actually looking for.
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cycotcskir
Senior Member
"It's like deja vu all over again"
The way I see this issue and many similar issues is:
A "listing" is a voluntary compliance to a set of criteria proving the use/installation/etc. to be safe.
Unless a certain use/installation method is specifically mentioned in the "listing", the use/installation becomes "something other than listed" de facto.
Another way to define "something other than listed" is "non-listed" or "unlisted"
The way I see this issue and many similar issues is:
A "listing" is a voluntary compliance to a set of criteria proving the use/installation/etc. to be safe.
Unless a certain use/installation method is specifically mentioned in the "listing", the use/installation becomes "something other than listed" de facto.
Another way to define "something other than listed" is "non-listed" or "unlisted"
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- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
But as I asked previously is a "Construction Specification" the same as field drilling a mounting hole?
I'm sure there is more than 1 way to look at it, but "provison for support" to me would indicate the designed mounting method. Add to that the design is such to prevent contact between conductors and mounting screws and it would seem,IMHO, if you installed screws that contacted the condcutors, you would be in violation.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Thanks Gus, I was looking all over for that art. yesterday. It would seem to imply if a screw was inserted in the box then accidental contact could occur making grounding the screw a necessity. I know it is crazy but I know you will not pass in one area around here if you install it that way.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
I agree with you in principle but I'm hung up on the fact that the section is titled "Construction Specifications". Even if your reasoning is true, and it makes perfect sense, I would still having trouble with the actual wording of that section due to that "CS" title.
Pierre C Belarge
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
As Augie has mentioned, the longer one "wears" the inspection hat, the more one looks at installations as close to the NEC as possible and less to what some call common sense. Part of the reason is the outside influence most electrical inspectors have from the people who are our superiors, such as building officials. Also, being in court a few times will definitely have a very large affect on the experience.
..."so Mr. Belarge, how do you come to that conclusion? Is that your personel opinion?" etc... hearing that on the stand with other angles the attorney is going to throw at you, of course after spending hours on the stand as the attorney qualifies your education and experience as an "expert" in the field. Of course they are very, very friendly when asking the questions.
Another part of the reason is the influence an EC can have. Such as when they ask for the code section(s). If it works in one direction, it should work in the other.
The last thing I will mention now is responsibility. Electrical inspectors do have responsibility. When I make a decision (usually trying to err on the side of safety), there is always the avenue of going to a superior who can overrule my decision. The beauty of that for me is, I am not the one whose signature is not on that document.
A last thought...
I attend a lot of seminars and meetings. I get to speak to a wide variety of people from our industry. Of those people, vendors and their experts are available for questions. A lot of times, I will ask them questions about topics brought up here on the forum. It is just another method of me gathering information that I may use during an inspection.
..."so Mr. Belarge, how do you come to that conclusion? Is that your personel opinion?" etc... hearing that on the stand with other angles the attorney is going to throw at you, of course after spending hours on the stand as the attorney qualifies your education and experience as an "expert" in the field. Of course they are very, very friendly when asking the questions.
Another part of the reason is the influence an EC can have. Such as when they ask for the code section(s). If it works in one direction, it should work in the other.
The last thing I will mention now is responsibility. Electrical inspectors do have responsibility. When I make a decision (usually trying to err on the side of safety), there is always the avenue of going to a superior who can overrule my decision. The beauty of that for me is, I am not the one whose signature is not on that document.
A last thought...
I attend a lot of seminars and meetings. I get to speak to a wide variety of people from our industry. Of those people, vendors and their experts are available for questions. A lot of times, I will ask them questions about topics brought up here on the forum. It is just another method of me gathering information that I may use during an inspection.
Subject to damage lets just use a little common sense Yes we all drill holes where we need them and there not but for cripes sake this is crazy!!!
Someone needs to make a list of all the articles in the NEC book that are of uncommon sense, and those articles could be ignored by all Electricians that have common sense.
s.cabbie@netzero.net
Member
- Location
- Montana
probably the best-secured box in that whole manufactured home!!! lol
iaov
Senior Member
- Location
- Rhinelander WI
Ones point of view on this certainly will change depending wether your are looking with inspectors eyes or not. It is a violation. The inspectors don't get to decide wich parts of the code they like and wich they don't. Is it an unsafe installation? Not at all. Could you justify not red tagging it in a court room? No lawyer would do any less than roast you for it!!
Pierre C Belarge
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Another issue some have with inspectors is consistency.
It is harder even still when one inspects in areas where there are more than 1600 different contractors, maybe even closer to 1800.
Any inspector cannot satisfy each and every different contractor, and the easiest way to solve that issue is to be consistant and use the NEC.
That is what I have learned to do, and I believe it ties in very closely to what Augie had mentioned earlier about the length of time one is an inspector.
I took some pics for you today Pierre :grin:
I was doing some bathroom remodel and had to relocate the wiring from a bath bar to two sconces. I cut my holes for my cut in boxes and found a stud set back about 2.25" You can't really tell from the pic that it's set back. It's a double framed plumbing wall with offset studs.
I used my paddle bit to take out another .25" to accomodate my box and used drywall..err....electrical box mounting screws instead of the crappy plastic ears that come on the box.
I couldn't resist taking the pics :grin:
I was doing some bathroom remodel and had to relocate the wiring from a bath bar to two sconces. I cut my holes for my cut in boxes and found a stud set back about 2.25" You can't really tell from the pic that it's set back. It's a double framed plumbing wall with offset studs.
I used my paddle bit to take out another .25" to accomodate my box and used drywall..err....electrical box mounting screws instead of the crappy plastic ears that come on the box.
I couldn't resist taking the pics :grin:
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
What a hack thing to do.
If you were right over a stud like that, why didn't you just use a metal octagon box? :-?
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