Pros and Cons of 240 or 120 floor heat ?

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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
fixed load, 'er ?

22ohms is 22ohms, doesnt matter if i hook that to 9vdc batt, or 14kV AC xfrmer.

hence, that load going from 120v to 240v will incur 2x amps or 4x the wattage across any DC ohms in the ckt end to end. obviously heating ckt wire that is not under the floor does not help in heating the room.
Ok he did say it was 22 ohms. Did not state if the cable had a maximum watt rating, which would limit how many volts it can have applied.

Sort of no different then most resistors have a resistance and watt rating. Apply too much voltage and you exceed the watt rating and overheat it. Though this heat cable rating could be a little more complex based on what it is embedded in and how well it sinks heat away from the cable.
 

Abu65

Member
Location
Kentucky
The OP stated the mat is 22 ohms.

So E=I*R
120V/22=5.45 amps

P=I*E
5.45*120=654.54 watts at 120v

E=I*R
240V/22=10.9

P=I*E
10.9*240=2618.18 watts at 240V

So I agree may be dangerous to connect it to 240V. Those small cables may not be rated at 11 amps ect. Could burn out the heaters etc. If the manufacturer says 120V the installer would be held responsible. The floor heat thermostats I have used have been 120V and the connections were marked. I think the confusion is how the heater is listed in ohms instead of watts. But at the end of the day the print says 120 volts.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
fixed load, 'er ?

22ohms is 22ohms, doesnt matter if i hook that to 9vdc batt, or 14kV AC xfrmer.

hence, that load going from 120v to 240v will incur 2x amps or 4x the wattage across any DC ohms in the ckt end to end. obviously heating ckt wire that is not under the floor does not help in heating the room.
I don't see how you could construe that as fixed load.......but what do I know........
 

FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Occupation
Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
I don't see how you could construe that as fixed load.......but what do I know........

because loads are typically/usually/commonly expressed by impedance.

impedance "+" voltage typically/usually/commonly expresses power.

recall that we do not need to know anything about voltage to calculate loads in terms of LCR as a function of frequency. all R then its the same as DC. when LC exists in some way the AC (freq) has some say-so, etc.

If you're powering electric resistance heaters, voltage drop in the supply wiring is heat, not waste.
if the heat is not being used for the intended need, then its waste. heating the wire inside the panel does no good for the cold feet up on 3rd floor. its why i mentioned some posts back, heating & cooling a room above 7ft is basically waste, because almost all humans do not occupy a room at those levels, etc. any multi level home has a bunch of wasted energy just because of the stairs. one reason why i have not and never will live in more than 1 story dwelling/house.
 
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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
if the heat is not being used for the intended need, then its waste. heating the wire inside the panel does no good for the cold feet up on 3rd floor. its why i mentioned some posts back, heating & cooling a room above 7ft is basically waste, because almost all humans do not occupy a room at those levels, etc. any multi level home has a bunch of wasted energy just because of the stairs. one reason why i have not and never will live in more than 1 story dwelling/house.
But such heat loss isn't always a total waste. Storage type water heaters - do give up heat just sitting there. That is waste heat from the perspective of water heating. If that tank is inside a space that needs heated anyway, you just lessened the load on the primary heating equipment.

Multilevel home, smart design and use of HVAC can help some, when it comes to evening out the comfort level.

Doors and windows usually result in more heat gain/loss then even somewhat poor attic insulation.

My basement is often warmer then the main floor on a cold windy winter day then the main floor - I attribute the amount of doors/windows to that, and it does have open stairs between floors and no thermal insulation between floors.
 

FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Occupation
Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
My basement is often warmer then the main floor on a cold windy winter day then the main floor - I attribute the amount of doors/windows to that, and it does have open stairs between floors and no thermal insulation between floors.

so on cold windy days do you hang out in the basement because its warmer than the main floor? i suspect not. the heat (energy) in the basement is being lost out to many things other than the floor above it, which means still some wasted heat (energy). this doesnt mean you are putting heat (energy) in the basement, just means that energy is still being wasted whether you are paying for it or not.

convection will be primary mode for heat to travel up the stairs into the main floor, where it will then mix and be lost via windows & doors. almost every 1btu you put it, is wasted at some point, because at any given time t the space around you is not the space you are in. take for example you sitting at dinner table on main floor, all that energy you paid for to cool the 2nd & 3rd floors is basically wasted because you are not there on those floors.

another example is a big 1story home, 5 bedrooms, multiple play rooms, 6k sq.ft. it would be extremely energy saving if AC & heat was activated only in the space you were in as you moved around, like occupancy sensors for lights.

but to generalize, all the energy we consume is wasted. all that heat we suck out of a home and exhausted via the outside condenser coil is lost energy (you pay to move it and then lose it, you paid for more than what the system moved, etc). all that heat could be used to pre-heat water to the water heater, which eventually gets lost anyways, but we can control the rate of loss via using efficient systems. the net sum of all energy consumed is exothermic and then lost forever into space, entropy of the universe is always increasing, yet the entropy density of universe is decreasing. unfortunately for Earth, the human processes used cause atmospheric conditions that trap more heat, thus elevating avg temps, which is not good. maybe one day instead of giant wind generators we will have giant radiators up in the air, because it will be so hot you can simply just heat water from the moving air and then use that hot water to turn generators and to heat public water.

the energy we use in HVAC in homes is extremely wasteful, or in other terms, very low efficiency. these systems are made to keep a giant volume of air at comfortable temp, but 99.99% of that volume you at not in at any given time. if you could wear clothes that kept you at a comfortable temp, would you need HVAC at all? we do not need HVAC when working outside in 30F temp, our clothes have enough R to keep us warm, no need to have a big IR heater while working.

as for water heater in home, sure, if its in a location that can use the lost heat. but that only works for when the home needs heat, certainly does no good when you need AC. my water heater is in the garage, lost heat there serves me no good year-round. how about cooking that turkey in the oven, all that nice heat coming out when its 20F outside, but what about when its middle of summer 90F and humid, how often do you use the oven in summer time?

ok, went went off the rails here, but you get the point.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
so on cold windy days do you hang out in the basement because its warmer than the main floor? i suspect not. the heat (energy) in the basement is being lost out to many things other than the floor above it, which means still some wasted heat (energy). this doesnt mean you are putting heat (energy) in the basement, just means that energy is still being wasted whether you are paying for it or not.

convection will be primary mode for heat to travel up the stairs into the main floor, where it will then mix and be lost via windows & doors. almost every 1btu you put it, is wasted at some point, because at any given time t the space around you is not the space you are in. take for example you sitting at dinner table on main floor, all that energy you paid for to cool the 2nd & 3rd floors is basically wasted because you are not there on those floors.

another example is a big 1story home, 5 bedrooms, multiple play rooms, 6k sq.ft. it would be extremely energy saving if AC & heat was activated only in the space you were in as you moved around, like occupancy sensors for lights.

but to generalize, all the energy we consume is wasted. all that heat we suck out of a home and exhausted via the outside condenser coil is lost energy (you pay to move it and then lose it, you paid for more than what the system moved, etc). all that heat could be used to pre-heat water to the water heater, which eventually gets lost anyways, but we can control the rate of loss via using efficient systems. the net sum of all energy consumed is exothermic and then lost forever into space, entropy of the universe is always increasing, yet the entropy density of universe is decreasing. unfortunately for Earth, the human processes used cause atmospheric conditions that trap more heat, thus elevating avg temps, which is not good. maybe one day instead of giant wind generators we will have giant radiators up in the air, because it will be so hot you can simply just heat water from the moving air and then use that hot water to turn generators and to heat public water.

the energy we use in HVAC in homes is extremely wasteful, or in other terms, very low efficiency. these systems are made to keep a giant volume of air at comfortable temp, but 99.99% of that volume you at not in at any given time. if you could wear clothes that kept you at a comfortable temp, would you need HVAC at all? we do not need HVAC when working outside in 30F temp, our clothes have enough R to keep us warm, no need to have a big IR heater while working.

as for water heater in home, sure, if its in a location that can use the lost heat. but that only works for when the home needs heat, certainly does no good when you need AC. my water heater is in the garage, lost heat there serves me no good year-round. how about cooking that turkey in the oven, all that nice heat coming out when its 20F outside, but what about when its middle of summer 90F and humid, how often do you use the oven in summer time?

ok, went went off the rails here, but you get the point.
I get the point - don't totally agree all things you mention are "totally" lost.

My basement is warmer for a couple reasons.

1) less loss because of less doors/windows.
2) heating system is "single zone" setup and the thermostat is upstairs.
Setting up second zone for the basement would add to comfort - may not be worth cost. That heat isn't complete waste, much of it will eventually migrate to upstairs. Adjusting dampers in registers in basement can possibly help some as well.

Water heater heat loss - is still losing heat to the house because tank is inside the house. Might not need it in the room it is in but it will migrate to other areas. It is a loss when cooling season comes around. One has to factor in installation and maintenance costs to decide if it is worth other methods vs. just taking the loss at times, as well as if the heating or cooling season is longer and heating cost vs cooling cost.

Conservation of energy is one thing. Cost is another. Finding the right balance changes from one place to another.

To only condition a room based on occupancy detection is mostly impractical - the temp won't necessarily be able to recover to comfortable levels (in an economically acceptable manner) quick enough for desired comfort/performance. To have a different setpoint during anticipated unoccupied times is a more feasible.
 

FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Occupation
Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
To only condition a room based on occupancy detection is mostly impractical - the temp won't necessarily be able to recover to comfortable levels (in an economically acceptable manner) quick enough for desired comfort/performance. To have a different setpoint during anticipated unoccupied times is a more feasible.

if energy is converted to heat, it will be lost, forever.

instant-on IR heaters and AC units, if engineered properly within a room, can work as occupancy HVAC ;)
very ugly at best, but very very efficient way of converting or moving energy. the concept is easily modeled using a long hallway, ~100 yards long, in that hallway that has 8-10ft high ceiling are IR lamps on each side up high, as you walk down the hallway the lamps immediately adjacent to you (N) and the one ahead of and behind you (N+1, N-1) turn on to a level based on environmental metrics. the heat follows you to keep you warm only in the area you "occupy". the same model can be applied for AC.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
if energy is converted to heat, it will be lost, forever.

instant-on IR heaters and AC units, if engineered properly within a room, can work as occupancy HVAC ;)
very ugly at best, but very very efficient way of converting or moving energy. the concept is easily modeled using a long hallway, ~100 yards long, in that hallway that has 8-10ft high ceiling are IR lamps on each side up high, as you walk down the hallway the lamps immediately adjacent to you (N) and the one ahead of and behind you (N+1, N-1) turn on to a level based on environmental metrics. the heat follows you to keep you warm only in the area you "occupy". the same model can be applied for AC.

I see similar instantaneous demand issues with that as you typically see with "on demand" water heaters. Especially for cooling purposes.
 

Frank DuVal

Senior Member
Location
Fredericksburg, VA 21 Hours from Winged Horses wi
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Engineer
heat follows you to keep you warm only in the area you "occupy". the same model can be applied for AC.

I would like to see an AC system that will cool a person like radiant heat can heat a person. So far I have not seen this technology.

You live in Arizona, so us east coasters would think you need AC year round and heat is an afterthought for "you-all". Of course, I know some areas of Arizona need heat, just like New Mexico needs heat. If AC is needed more than heat, then a two story house is more efficient, as there is less roof to absorb the radiated energy of the sun and heat the ceilings of the rooms below. This is exactly why I find two story homes easier to cool. Run the manual J calculations.

http://www.loadcalc.net/
 

FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Occupation
Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
I would like to see an AC system that will cool a person like radiant heat can heat a person. So far I have not seen this technology.

You live in Arizona, so us east coasters would think you need AC year round and heat is an afterthought for "you-all". Of course, I know some areas of Arizona need heat, just like New Mexico needs heat. If AC is needed more than heat, then a two story house is more efficient, as there is less roof to absorb the radiated energy of the sun and heat the ceilings of the rooms below. This is exactly why I find two story homes easier to cool. Run the manual J calculations.

http://www.loadcalc.net/

not really, depends on how the roof to ceiling is made and insulated.
my attic stays fairly cool in dead summer when the ambient hovers around 104-105F and not a cloud around. my roofline is insulated, so very little heat makes it into the air space of the attic. ceiling are not insulated (should be) so only 1/2" drywall as insulator from any heat coing in via attic space. I can stand in my attic for much of that space. my home is roughly 3100sq.ft, footprint 1story, kinda in U shape, so two big reverse hips here. lots of sun heat hitting concrete roof tile.

the most sq.ft. you can get, be it 2D or 3D, is square, so i not sure what you mean by a 2story is better than a one story, most 2 storys are cubes for the most part, which for same living sq.ft. makes the exposed sq.ft. more than that same living sq.ft. in a 1story.

construction matters. 2x4 framed 1story vs 2x6 or 2x8 framed 2story matters. so the argument of 1story vs 2story is weak because construction dimensions matter.

heating a 2story - a lot of heat from fl-1 goes right up stairs.
cooling a 2story - a lot of the colder air sinks down into 1st fl.

the convection mode makes it harder to control a constant temp in 2story vs 1story.


anyways - OP's Q, 120v or 240v ? depends on if the heater (22ohm load) can take on an applied voltage of 240v.
 
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