Protection From Physical Damage, but??

[joe tedesco]

This electrical equipment was protected against physical damage in this parking lot behind some stores.

The working space about the equipment didn't meet the code when this was installed, since it appears to have been there for many years. It still violates the code today!

The gas meters are also near the meters, and may violate some code as well.

Even the ground rods can be cited!

I took this picture so that it could be added to my collection showing where the utility companies have some situations that may be hazardous and are ignored.

Joe Tedesco

[ September 23, 2003, 07:37 AM: Message edited by: joe tedesco ]

 

[jxofaltrds]

Re: Protection From Physical Damage, but??

Joe

It looks like they were protecting the gas meters rather than the electrical equipment.

Mike P.

 

[pierre]

Re: Protection From Physical Damage, but??

Joe
The protection there is not for the gas meters, but for the ground rods sticking up above grade.

Pierre

 

[joe tedesco]

Re: Protection From Physical Damage, but??

Those were excellent observations!

I was also wondering where the service entrance conductors are located? Probably inside where supplied from the drop through the weatherhead above the roof. The 30 inch clearance for the swing on the cabinet? Don't think that was there either.

The code for cranes allows a removable hinged cover, but not here!

What about the Arc Flash?

Just an introduction of the stuff I see in most states and around the country.

Pierre, how about sending me some pictures from NYC or Staten Island, I know there are some beauties there too!

 

[Guest]

Re: Protection From Physical Damage, but??

My POCO does not allow a meter base to be above a gas meter. There has to be a 6-inch separation. There is also a minimum from the gas meter riser to the electric meter base riser or drop, but that does not apply here.

The gas pipes on the load side are run super-surface which is unconventional. Additionally, the don't appear to be clamped to the wall.

It appears this was all installed with good intentions-- albeit imperfectly.

This installation is not an imminent hazard. It will be difficult to service, but the GP is not at risk.

PS: What is your contention that the ground rods are in violation? It would be hard for a car to hit them as they are below bumper height.

[ September 23, 2003, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]

 

[bennie]

Re: Protection From Physical Damage, but??

I know everyone hates it when I do this, but please explain; what is the problem?

 

[pierre]

Re: Protection From Physical Damage, but??

Bennie
Actually some of us look to see if there are any discrepencies. It can be a good way to get a point across.

1. the gas meter location as far as I am aware is to be 3 feet from electrical 'equipment'. I am sure Charlie (POCO)will let me know if I am wrong.

2. The ground rods are to be driven 8 feet. These could be 10 foot rods, but if they are above grade they are required to be protected. The fittings are not 'acorns', but there are some companies (Harger) that make listed fittings that look like waterpipe clamps that are listed for ground rod connections.

3.Support of the GEC.

4. Protection of the GEC.

5. How about identification of the meters?

6. In our local area the POCO is strictly enforcing the 4'-6" to 5'-6" height requirement for ALL electrical meters.

7. Stretching, but trying to be thorough. How about cementing, or closing the hole around the GECs as they exit the block wall.

 

[pierre]

Re: Protection From Physical Damage, but??

Looking at the photo again, it is clear the electrical was installed before the gas. The ground rod is under the gas meter.

Pierre

 

[bennie]

Re: Protection From Physical Damage, but??

The meters are in the ninth course of the block. The block is 8 inches per course.

The barracade is in front of the gas meters. The electrical metering is not likely to be hit by a car, unless it is one of the big four wheelers, with high bumpers.


The meters are likely on the side of the building they are metering. Identifiction should not be a problem.

I think it would be very difficult to write a legitimate non compliance report. Ugly is not a violation.

[ September 23, 2003, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: bennie ]

 

[websparky]

Re: Protection From Physical Damage, but??

A bit of clarification;

The yellow pole on the right is directly in front of the CT enclosure and overlaps the left site by 7". The pole is 8" in front of the enclosure door also.

If one were to open the door, it not open anywhere close to the 90 degree requirement.

2002 NEC 2002
110.26(2) Width of Working Space. The width of the working space in front of the electric equipment shall be the width of the equipment or 750 mm (30 in.), whichever is greater. In all cases, the work space shall permit at least a 90 degree opening of equipment doors or hinged panels.

To work on the meter on the left, one's legs would be touching the rails which are 28" away from the wall!

 

[bennie]

Re: Protection From Physical Damage, but??

Draw a line at proper angle, from the post to the wall. The right post is at the side of the can. There is considerable parallax error.

There is nothing in this can that requires working or adjusting while energized.

 

[pierre]

Re: Protection From Physical Damage, but??

Bennie
I am not picking on you, but lets take this a little further.

I know that the meter height requirement is a local thing. but the meter is at the 9th block as you said - 9x8= 72 inches.

I know the angle is tough, and I don't want to argue over something I can not prove. If the cement filled posts were in front of the meter, I have and probably will again in the future have measured for voltage in a meter enclosure. There is not enough clearance if this is indeed in front of the meter (which it looks like to me). Would you really want to work there?

This looks to me to be the back of a store and that is the most likely spot for deliveries, we have all seen what these guys can do with a delivery truck. I believe the electromagnetic force of the service pulls the truck into the service . Forget about the SUV.

Bennie we all know how intelligent you are... parallax .. JEEZ I had to look it up.

Parallax - An apparent change in the position of an object when the person looking at the object changes position. WOW!!!

I have enough trouble with PARAMNESIA- an inability to recall the meanings of common words!

Pierre

 

[iwire]

Re: Protection From Physical Damage, but??

A question, if that box contains CT metering equipment would it come under the NEC at all?

The same for the meters themselves, are they under NEC jurisdiction?

Now if they are under NEC jurisdiction who would get a violation, we seem to agree that the electric was first.

If the electric was first, inspected and approved I see no recourse available to the electric inspector as this is now an existing condition.

I do not like it and I would hate to work on this as it is but I do not see what the AHJ could do about it.

 

[cselectric]

Re: Protection From Physical Damage, but??

Parralax error? Either you've done your homework Bennie, or you've spent some time looking through rifle scopes.


Pierre, the 3' distance from gas meters is actually found in NFPA 54 (fuel gas code.) I can't speak for all areas, but the power companies I've dealt with have enforced that as part of their written rules.

 

[bennie]

Re: Protection From Physical Damage, but??

I did a bit of aircraft flying, in my youth. Compensating for parallax error was important when looking at the panel instruments.

 

[joe tedesco]

Re: Protection From Physical Damage, but??

cselectric

See NFPA 54 Section 5.7.2.3

Gas meters shall be located at least 3 ft (0.9 m) from sources of ignition.

I may have another picture taken from a different angle and will try to find it tomorrow.

 

[bennie]

Re: Protection From Physical Damage, but??

Where is the source for ignition?

 

[Guest]

Re: Protection From Physical Damage, but??

On a bias my meter-main/combo is three feet away from my gas meter, but if you drop a plumb bob from the corner of my box to my gas meter it's more like 8".

My POCO allows 6" of horizontal space between the gas meter and the service entrance.

There are other restrictions too, but nothing about "source of ignition" when it comes to the panel vs. the gas meter.

 

[websparky]

Re: Protection From Physical Damage, but??

Gentlemen,

The reason I gave the description prior, is that Joe took the photo with me present when we were in Indianapolis this spring.

If there is a parallax error, it is in the angle of the photo only.

I can assure you, there was no parrallax error from my eyes to the tape measure!

 

[joe tedesco]

Re: Protection From Physical Damage, but??

NFPA 54 Section 3.3.196 Defines "Sources of Ignition" as Devices or equipment that, because of their intended modes of use or operation, are capable of providing sufficient thermal energy to ignite flammable gas?air mixtures.

NFPA 54 Section 5.7.2.2 Gas meters shall not be placed where they will be subjected to damage, such as adjacent to a driveway, under a fire escape, in public passages, halls, or coal bins, or where they will be subject to excessive corrosion or vibration.

I asked the NFPA 54 Staff Liaison many years ago about this question, and he agreed that the electrical equipment and meters were a possible source of ignition.

Think about the reasons for my questions above in the first post and the way in which the space about the electrical equipment is to be provided with the specific clearances that are detailed in 110.26.

This installation Violates the code and it doesn't make any difference if the NEC or Gas Code is used, the hazard does exist and the Judge and Jury would throw the book at the Utility Companies if someone was hurt while working on this equipment or if some type of damage was caused by a car or truck.

Where is the Charlie, Utility Guy?
This installation is in Indianapolis