Psychiatrist Office - Patient Care Space?

[dgosney]

I have read NEC 517 several times and wanted a second opinion on a medical office building with psychiatrist offices. Are they considered a Patient Care Area if there is no electromechanical devices in the room, the psychiatrist will never touch the patient, and the room is the actual office of the psychiatrist? It's no different than what you saw on the Bob Newhart show where the patient sits on a chair or couch and talks to the doctor. Thanks.

 

[steve66]

I believe this has been debated here before.

In my opinion, I would say this is not a patient care area. Others may disagree.

See the definition - a portion of a healthcare facility wherein patients are to be examined or treated. If the doctor never touches the patient, I don't think that meets the intended definition of "treated or examined".

 

[Jraef]

But technically, a psychiatrist is a MEDICAL doctor, as opposed to a psychologist or therapist, who is not. So a psychiatrist COULD technically "examine and treat" patients medically.

In reality, they don't do any of that any more from my experience. They just listen to your story, write a drug scrip and boot you out the door. That "Bob Newhart" analogy is long gone. A relative was recently suicidal so we got them in to see a psychiatrist. He did exactly what I described and when my relative asked why he didn't offer "therapy", he told them that they don't do that any more, they just prescribe Prozac or something like that. If you want to talk to someone about your problems, you have to find a psychologist or therapist. But they can't write prescriptions, so you end up paying them both... feed the kitty...

 

[dgosney]

Psychiatrist Office - Patient Care Space?

Is there another code that defines "examined or treated"? This is what has me hung up. I didn't see anything in NFPA 99.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I think the only answer you will get is from the authority having jurisdiction. IMO, a psychiatrist is not treating patients medically other than prescribing meds. I may be wrong but that is my impression of them.

 

[mbrooke]

I think it depends whether or not any equipment is being plugged in to be used on the patient. For example, a room where simple psychotherapy is taking place would not be patient care in the sense of the code, while a clinic or room where TMS (for example) is being administered would be patient care.

TMS for those who have not heard of it:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_magnetic_stimulation

 

[dmxtothemax]

the patient sits on a chair or couch and talks to the doctor.

This could be considered as "examining the patient"

Its a legal grey area

is there a legal defination for examining ?

 

[dgosney]

This could be considered as "examining the patient"

IRS agents "examine" you. There is no difference. There needs to be a definition in reference to this section that is defined. If no medical equipment is being used, or the doctor is not touching you, then "electrically" speaking, you are not being examined.

 

[steve66]

I think it depends whether or not any equipment is being plugged in to be used on the patient. For example, a room where simple psychotherapy is taking place would not be patient care in the sense of the code, while a clinic or room where TMS (for example) is being administered would be patient care.

TMS for those who have not heard of it:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_magnetic_stimulation

The original post said no electromechanical devices, but who is to say the doctor wouldn't start using something 10 years down the road.

This could be considered as "examining the patient"

Its a legal grey area

is there a legal defination for examining ?

Sure, its a grey area. As much as they try to make the code black and white, there are always grey areas. Its up to the AHJ to make the final say. If something isn't defined in the code, the common use of the word as defined in a dictionary applies.

If you look in 517 under the definition of patient care areas, there are 3 types of areas defined. I don't think this area fits any of the three, so by that reasoning, it wouldn't be a patient care area.

 

[user 100]

The original post said no electromechanical devices, but who is to say the doctor wouldn't start using something 10 years down the road.



Sure, its a grey area. As much as they try to make the code black and white, there are always grey areas. Its up to the AHJ to make the final say. If something isn't defined in the code, the common use of the word as defined in a dictionary applies.

If you look in 517 under the definition of patient care areas, there are 3 types of areas defined. I don't think this area fits any of the three, so by that reasoning, it wouldn't be a patient care area.

Besides the TMS, another thing a psychiatrist could use is Electroconvulsive therapy (think "One Flew over the Cuckoos Nest")- but I would think (and hope) that
would be done in a hospital, not in a standard dr.'s office in some room w/a couch.

I concur with the above about ahj having the final say.

 

[cowboyjwc]

It doesn't really matter what you call it, simply look at 517.11 General Installation. The purpose of this article is to specify the installation criteria and wiring methods that minimize electrical hazards by the maintenance of adequately low potential differences only between exposed conductive surfaces that are likely to become energized and could be contacted by a patient.

Now, in this office are there any conductive surfaces that are likely to become energized and could be contacted by a patient?

 

[steve66]

It doesn't really matter what you call it, simply look at 517.11 General Installation. The purpose of this article is to specify the installation criteria and wiring methods that minimize electrical hazards by the maintenance of adequately low potential differences only between exposed conductive surfaces that are likely to become energized and could be contacted by a patient.

Now, in this office are there any conductive surfaces that are likely to become energized and could be contacted by a patient?

Sure it matters. 517.13 only applies to patient care areas. So if its not a patient care area, 517.12 and standard wiring methods apply.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Sure it matters. 517.13 only applies to patient care areas. So if its not a patient care area, 517.12 and standard wiring methods apply.

Actually it's an office and 517 doesn't apply at all.