Pulling permits for other people

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allenwayne said:
Lets say you have a completly legit company.Aside from not having a licensed master.The employees are quite qualified to do the actual work.But in this scenario they don`t qualify to get a masters license.(this is hypothetical mind you) So they get a licensed master to qualify the company.In this scenario the company pays the licensee to qualify the company and lets say makes the licensee the CEO (on paper) of the now qualified due to the licensee qualifying the company.This is beyond our realm of expertise.Legalities are best left to the Liers I mean lawyers :)
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I agree with this. I don't condone renting a license.

Tom
 
Allen, this does not need a lawyer.

If the license holder is employed by the company and he is employed only by that company during the hours of business there is nothig wrong.

If he is "renting" is license and not and employee or officer of the company, then he and the company are breaking laws.

Roger
 
roger said:
Allen, this does not need a lawyer.

If the license holder is employed by the company and he is employed only by that company during the hours of business there is nothig wrong.

If he is "renting" is license and not and employee or officer of the company, then he and the company are breaking laws.

Roger
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Nobody used the term renting only qualifying Roger.
 
Around here it's done all of the time. But the license holder is listed on the business permit under which the company must operate. Basically you're the license holder for that specific company.
 
I guess the legalties change from state to state.Here Joe A can get an occupational license and open a business, but needs Joe B with the masters to operate the business if Joe A doesn`t or can`t get a masters.Kind of a catch 22 situation.
 
I have to believe that in most (or all) states, you must be employed by a licensed electrical contractor in order to perform electrical work. The electrical contractor can be licensed only with a qualifier. The qualifier does not need to own the business, but must have control of the electrical work. Pulling a permit and letting others (not employed by the company pulling the permit) do the work is not allowed, even if you supervise the work. I don't believe you are allowed to "sub" the work to a non-licensed contractor.

We have all worked hard to obtain our qualifier status. Why would anyone ever pull a permit and let someone else do the work? If you do that, you encourage lower prices for the work we perform. It's wrong, both legally and morally (of course this is JMO).
 
hardworkingstiff said:
Why would anyone ever pull a permit and let someone else do the work? If you do that, you encourage lower prices for the work we perform. It's wrong, both legally and morally (of course this is JMO).
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Once again we get to the real issue - money. At least you are willing to admit thats what it is all about.

The way I see it you have a legal obligation to follow the law, and a moral obligation to treat those you deal with in a fair and honest way. Keeping your local brother electricians employed at higher wages is not a legal or a moral issue. It is strictly greed.
 
petersonra said:
Once again we get to the real issue - money. At least you are willing to admit thats what it is all about.

The way I see it you have a legal obligation to follow the law, and a moral obligation to treat those you deal with in a fair and honest way. Keeping your local brother electricians employed at higher wages is not a legal or a moral issue. It is strictly greed.
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:roll:

Bob, might you be envious that many of us electricians make more than you?

Do you abide by ethical and legal Engineering rules and standards or do you just seal others drawings for a fee regardless of whether it is under your expertise or not?

Tell us the truth now.

Roger
 
petersonra said:
Once again we get to the real issue - money. At least you are willing to admit thats what it is all about.
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I go to work for the money. I'ts not a hobby. Vehicles (I just ordered one this week) now about $30,000 +; home to live in, $200,00 to +millions; groceries are getting more expensive all the time; gas is down from the peaks (but my bet is it's going back to $4/gallon); etc etc.

Yea, for me, it's all about the money (but I will not let the quality of work I perform suffer). I expect to be paid well for a job well done.

I put a lot of time and hard work into getting my credentials, and the laws of my State say I have earned a right to perform electrical work AND to obtain permits and operate a business. Allowing others to perform that work without obtaining the proper licenses is just wrong.
 
I know in MA that you can only have one apprentice for every licensed journeyman. So if the company did rent the master license, the work would still have to be performed by licensed journeyman or apprentices under thier direct supervision. That means they dont get to wire one area while the journeyman wires anoughther. Also a journeyman can operate his own bussiness but he cannot hire anoughther journeyman. He can only have one apprentice that works directly with him. A master can have as many journeyman working for him as he wants but he can only have one apprentice for every licensed journeyman. I'm sure not all states are the same. I just think that this practice would be illegal in MA.
 
petersonra said:
Keeping your local brother electricians employed at higher wages is not a legal or a moral issue. It is strictly greed.
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Bob, why haven't you started your own engineering firm or your own electrical contracting business? When you do then you can act as morally superior as you wish but remember the bills still have to be paid.

When you get a dog in this fight then you can tell us all about how money doesn't matter.

To get and keep good people you have to pay them. To do quality work it takes good people. To do a safe and legal job you must do quality work. To stay in business you must continue to do safe and legal jobs. So what appears to be greed is actually necessity.

When people want jobs permited for them they are not interested in getting into nor staying in the electrical contracting business. They want to make a fast buck with no risk. This is not very legal or moral.
 
Section 6. No person, firm or corporation holding a ?certificate A or certificate C? shall be liable for work done by his or its employees, unless it appears that such work was done with his or its knowledge or consent or by his or its authorization.

This is MA law not made up.
Tom

Tom, It seems to me, if I sent a guy to go do a job, He would be doing the job with my consent and knowledge. If he went and hung a ceiling fan as a side job after work or on Saturday without my knowledge, than he would be doing it without my knowledge or consent. Looks like a big difference to me.

Steve
 
allenwayne said:
In this scenario the company pays the licensee to qualify the company and lets say makes the licensee the CEO (on paper) of the now qualified due to the licensee qualifying the company.This is beyond our realm of expertise.Legalities are best left to the Liers I mean lawyers :)
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Nowhere does it say the CEO has to be the license holder. It can just be a regular employee. I worked at a steel mill where the general forman held the license. He was far from the CEO of the once Dow listed company. To own a large business, you'd be better off being a businessman than an electrician. The trick to going from being an electriciand to owning a successful electrical contracting business, is becoming a good businessman.
 
bradleyelectric said:
The trick to going from being an electriciand to owning a successful electrical contracting business, is becoming a good businessman.
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Amen to that Steve
 
bradleyelectric said:
Section 6. No person, firm or corporation holding a ?certificate A or certificate C? shall be liable for work done by his or its employees, unless it appears that such work was done with his or its knowledge or consent or by his or its authorization.

This is MA law not made up.
Tom

Tom, It seems to me, if I sent a guy to go do a job, He would be doing the job with my consent and knowledge. If he went and hung a ceiling fan as a side job after work or on Saturday without my knowledge, than he would be doing it without my knowledge or consent. Looks like a big difference to me.

Steve
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May well be, but I take it as (bad, illegal)work that would make you liable in a bad way?

I'm not a lawyer though.:smile:

Tom:confused:
 
jzadroga said:
I know in MA that you can only have one apprentice for every licensed journeyman. So if the company did rent the master license, the work would still have to be performed by licensed journeyman or apprentices under thier direct supervision. That means they dont get to wire one area while the journeyman wires anoughther. Also a journeyman can operate his own bussiness but he cannot hire anoughther journeyman. He can only have one apprentice that works directly with him. A master can have as many journeyman working for him as he wants but he can only have one apprentice for every licensed journeyman. I'm sure not all states are the same. I just think that this practice would be illegal in MA.
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There was a time here that they required a licensed journeyman on the job.Not sure if that has changed or just forgotten.But the way it is done is that as long as the master pulled the permit for an EC any TOM DICK or HARRY can do the actual work.
 
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