PVC Banned in SFO

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jcook980

jcook980

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Gresham, Oregon
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Electrical Engineer
PVC used in building products in San Francisco is now banned. I'd like to know what some of you would recommend as substitutes for PVC conductor insulation and nonmetallic conduit.

Are my only reasonable substitutes XHHW insulation and HDPE conduit? Have the "treeing" degradation issues with XHHW insulation been resolved?

Thanks!

Jim
 
Do you have a link to the actual ban in question? I did a search and only found stuff about banning PVC toys for children under 3.

There is no question that PVC has dangers. At the same time it has significant benefits for electrical installations.

I don't believe that removing PVC at the present time has more benefits than its costs, and that doing so would result in less over-all safety.

-Jon
 
Let me clarify: The City of San Francisco has apparently banned the use of PVC building materials on projects funded by the city. We have been directed on a transit project to remove all references to PVC conduit and wire insulation from the specifications and drawings. We are substituting XHHW and HDPE. Are there any other types of nonmetallic conduit or wire insulation we should also consider?
Jim
 
infinity said:
What about THHN insulation? Is Thermoplastic a form of PVC?
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PVC is a form of thermoplastic according to wikkipedia. Ithink that was part of the OP's problem. No nm cable or thhn etc. Thus the xhhw
 
GE Plastics has devoloped a new wire insulation as a result of the envriomental issues with some of the current inslulations, but at this point it is only being used for automotive wiring. I don't know if there are plans to use it for building wiring.
don
 
"The City of San Francisco has apparently banned the use of PVC building materials on projects funded by the city. We have been directed on a transit project to remove all references to PVC conduit and wire insulation from the specifications and drawings. We are substituting XHHW and HDPE. Are there any other types of nonmetallic conduit or wire insulation we should also consider?"

This looks like another case of social engineers in that city freely spending other peoples money to advance some cause.

Whenever a good and economical product is excluded, the substitute always costs more. Politicians usually call it "creating jobs".
 
SF what a bunch of knee-jerk dumb azzes. Who in their right mind, is going to move in such a fashion. I Can hear the mantras now, it's good environmental control...it's for the children...etc. It's a bunch of socialist whacko's praying for more nanny state bs.
 
Rockyd said:
SF what a bunch of knee-jerk dumb azzes. Who in their right mind, is going to move in such a fashion. I Can hear the mantras now, it's good environmental control...it's for the children...etc. It's a bunch of socialist whacko's praying for more nanny state bs.
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Don't keep it in. Tell us what you really think.
 
I can't say that I disagree with the feelings expressed but lets stay on topic and see if we can help the OP out of this spot he finds himself in. :smile:

I
 
I hear they also banned plastic grocery bags in S.F. Apparently they want you to use paper. (I thought we were cutting down to many trees)?

Perhaps we can go with the same solution, anybody know where to get the old cloth and paper wrapped wire.???:grin: :grin: :grin:

We can laugh at the Californians now but what they start usually spreads across the country. e.g. occupancy sensors, daylight harvesting. Better start saving your grocery bags and thhn....
 
This will have far reaching effects. Think of how much PVC is used in common construction from flooring to plumbing to electrical and on and on. Heck, the plumbers will have to go back to iron waste pipes. That plastic water pipe is out too. What will underground conduits be? Let's face it we've become plastic people.
 
yanici said:
Heck, the plumbers will have to go back to iron waste pipes. That plastic water pipe is out too.
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Not a problem in Massachusetts. All non-residential plumbing must be "hard pipe" - iron and copper for DWV and copper for supply lines.
 
Okay, back to subject, There are a couple of options, first you have to play the game. Second, is to get this law stricken down. If your going to "test the waters" on the potential of getting this law overturned for the public good, (need a few "experts"with accreditdation, to undo damage wrought down by people who don't understand the risk of unintended consequences for testimony. Remember, the people your going after, only feel,{hey, they're bureaucrats} they don't think. Ask them for facts and proofs, of their stated goals, they normally start to unravel pretty fast) From our corner, have a couple of names for you to start with...Congressman Richard Pombo, and even though they are mounting a presdential campaign, Duncan Hunter.

Richard Pombo is an outstanding person in defending property and individual rights, so that may be your best lead.

It's pretty typical that most environmental control groups, don't care about the environment, they only care about control. With that in mind, hoping you're part of a contractor's group, as it takes a lot of resources in some of these battles.
 
Jim,
I'm sure, bidding on municipal projects, that you have more knowledge and experience than myself. Just an observation about plastic conduits and a couple local experiences. SCE or other utilities besides PG&E may have been using other materials. It may (??) be worthwhile to try calling some utility service reps to bounce this one off on. Looking through ESRs all over the state will take all day.
 
Typical knee-jerk over reaction.

There is no "ban" on all PVC in every system, especially something important like wire insulation. This is STRICTLY a ban on chemicals USED in making PVC, specifically BPA and pthalates that make it pliable in children's toys, and only in applications where it is likely to cause harm to children who come in casual contact with it. It would be difficult to argue that the exposure to trace amounts of BPA in PVC wire insulation would be more harmful than the kid just playing with a wire!

For those who want to stop getting on the "bash the SF loonies" bandwagon, here is the SPECIFIC ordinance in question, as it was written in October last year. It is not yet enacted, and there is NO mention of banning construction materials.
http://www.sfgov.org/site/uploadedfiles/bdsupvrs/leganalyst/OLA_057-06_Child_Plastics_Ban.pdf


The entire campaign is to outlaw all the cheap and dangerous toys being sold in Dollar stores from China where they have no laws against manufacturing them like we do here. What happens is, a cheap-o Chinese labor camp manufacturer makes them and tries to import them. Someone in Customs recognizes they don't meet US standards and confiscates them. Then they sit in a Federal warehouse for a year until they are auctioned off as "scrap" plastic to brokers who sell them for pennies to the Dollar Store chains, who are allowed to sell them because they call them "novelties" instead of "toys", thus circumventing the consumer protection laws. SF is just trying to step in and protect their citizens from something the Feds are turning a blind eye to because of China's "favored nation" status.
 
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