PVC Banned in SFO

[e57]

Hmmmm.... Where to begin??????

PVC has always been banned in the use of just about all applications of building materials spare a choice few in SF county - not just public work... And it's nothing new! Although we do have a number of Berkley grads who somehow find themselfs in politics here - the use of PVC has nothing to do with them. (Although the more they go on - the more 'Cartman' I feel at times )

PVC has been limited in use in buildings because we have a higher density population with often 0" clearance between buildings - everytime we have a major earth quake - whole neighborhoods burn to the ground! The idea is to limit fire and toxin loads in structure fires. If they could ban wood - they would! Not for the 'filthy hippies' that get elected to County Supervisor seats - but for the Fire Dept. As mentioned we have 2 hour rated walls on residential (and often more on commercial) buildings on property lines - so you often have these 2 hour walls butted up against each other - and its GOOD THINKING! They want to keep the fuel for fire low. Not that PVC causes fires, but when you have a fire the PVC burns... And in recent and past worst case scenarios there was never PVC in the buildings, but the effects are well known that they would be much worse had there been. As a fire in a single house here can quickly become a city block. PVC has a much higher rate of flame travel than its many alternatives like metalic conduit and piping, or MC. NM in habitable spaces must be behind finish of .5 hours min., and depending on the building not allowed at all.

So, off the top of my head... And it has ALWAYS BEEN THIS WAY! PVC conduit is limited to below grade, or in slab - always has been, probhably always will be! Smurf in slab only... NM cable is limited to residential only and in structures 4 stories or less. And the use of riser or plenum tel/data/CATV cables is enforced. (Unlike many other places...) As far as THHN/THWN in RMC/EMT - no problem! Use it all the time....

NO PVC plumbing either! Well except for PEX heating in closed system boilers, and high efficiency flues for 'Flash' heaters and furnaces due to the corrosive content in the conedsate they produce.

If you spot PVC installed within site in any building is SF - it is a 'tell-tale that the job was unpermitted, and done by a hack!!!! Sure you can use it for the items I mentioned above, but you wont SEE them because they will be below grade, in concrete, or behind a fire-rated finish... (for the most part...)

Some have debated that 'my fair city' writes it's own code... THEY DO, but at least they enforce it - as I have worked many places throughout the state - I can say this... We have some very well educated, and inteligent Inspectors and they know what they are talking about... (MOST OF THE TIME) And although the city has been sued several times for exceeding the state code they have won every time as the codes are justified, and published publicaly - if you take it to court, they play video of the Marina District on fire during the '89 quake as you leave the courtroom and hand your lawyer his money.... :grin:

(I think they have video/slideshow of the 1906 fire, with perminent position FD staff to play and explain it too...)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/San_francisco_fire_1906.jpg

If you're dumb enough not to check local codes before bidding, and especially before starting work - that is your problem! (It doesn't matter where it is - like Chicago, or NYC - much the same.)

They can be found here: SF Code

As for the Plastic bag issue - right now it is just on the Mayors desk - doubt he'll sign it. Although it is the law that we recycle 90% of construction debris and compost all resturaunt waste the grocery bag may be here to stay.... SF Scavenger, our local refuse company said they wont take plastic recycling if the law goes through until there is a proven way for them not to end up in the plastics stream of recycling. As they re-sell it, and if a single biodegradable (soy) bag ends up in a lot - that lot gets refused by the recycler that they sell plastics to. And this would un-do all the work they have done in that area, and render all of the lot unusable. - So I doubt the 'Soy' bag the hippies want to force down our throats will fly anytime soon...

BTW I have seen the recycling area for contruction debris here - IMPRESSIVE! I got to do some warantee work for the manufacturer years ago - who made the 'shaker table'. It takes a whole dumpsters and shakes out and spreads it out over 3 lines of 100's people who pick out every scrap of copper, wood, nails, glass and it also gets you if you drop paint or a car battery in the dumpster so you get properly fined... :wink:

Oh yes - I forgot to mention that 'Soil Dumping' is illegal here as well! As it naturally contains aspestos in all samples of it... Serpantine Bed rock here is a great source of it.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

e57,

PVC has been limited in use in buildings because we have a higher density population with often 0" clearance between buildings - everytime we have a major earth quake - whole neighborhoods burn to the ground! The idea is to limit fire and toxin loads in structure fires.

So they also prohibit furniture, carpet and things like that? The amount of fire fuel and toxins in building mechanical and electrical systems is very small in comparison to that in the furniture and finishes.
Don

 

[kingpb]

I can see the point on PVC and burning, the gases given off while flaming away are quite poisonous, but where do you draw the line? I think everyone agrees that the environment can use some help, but since only 14% of the population in that area of the country can even afford to purchase property, I think ways need to be found to bring prices down, not drive them up.

 

[e57]

~ since only 14% of the population in that area of the country can even afford to purchase property, I think ways need to be found to bring prices down, not drive them up.

Thats why they allow NM in residential - otherwise we would've followed suit with Chicago in metalic wiring methods. Chicago is another city that was burned early in electrical history - neither were electrical fires, but both have strict but antiquated fire codes due to suffering horrific losses in huge fires. Here there are quite a few brick buildings built after the 1906 earthquake as it was debated that the fire was more destructive than the earthquake. SF is also one of the first major cities to be 'electrified', because gas lighting was to blame in most of the fires - although there is no proof of it. Shortly after there were companies (some still around) that specialized in pulling wire in your gas lines and 'electrifying' your chandeliers and sconces. (Ever wonder why a crow-foot hickey is the same size as a 1/2" gas nipple? Fixtures were made as replacements for gas lighting...) They only did that for a short time, and I come across them every blue moon. I come across live (but capped) gas lines inside light outlets all the time.... Most don't even have boxes - just K&T with loom taped to the gas line, with a wooden cork in the gas pipe and a porcilin "Turban" fitting to hang the fixture from.

Either way, allowing massive amounts of PVC in buildings is not going to drop the price of housing here. And contrary to common belief, neither will another major quake - it will be another boom to prices! Most people would only see it as an opprotunity to buy, or unload less desirable property at rediculous profit. 1200sq' house (No yard or parking) $750K-$1M. If the building "fell down" the dirt under it would still be worth the same - or MORE!

Don - you would be surprised at how much electrical, tel/data, and mechanical you can cram into 2k sq' victorian flat! (Every bell and whistle you might find in a mansion 5X's the size.) Average building is three of those. And for a whole city block you might only find 1-2 of them with >1/2" between them. What you end up with is whole city blocks that seem like single structures - all of them jamb packed.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

e57,

Don - you would be surprised at how much electrical, tel/data, and mechanical you can cram into 2k sq' victorian flat!

It is my opinion that the furniture, and finishes will far out weigh even that. I would expect by a factor of at least 10 to 1. The fire load from the contents and finishes in a dwelling type unit will always exceed that of the building and its systems. If they really wanted fire safety for the other units and buildings, they would have required a sprinkler system. They can be installed for less that $2 a square foot, and it would be a very rare fire that in a sprinkler protected building that spreads beyond the room or origin. There are at least 50 communities in Illinois that require sprinklers for all new dwelling units.
Don

 

[e57]

Don, you know they cant ban, or control furnature or carpets.... They can however ban, and control what you and I would install. Most of which is not far from the state code or NEC when it comes to NM and building type. And there have been a few instances where fire resistant and intumesant paint has been involved. Sprinklers over 3 stories... Neither of which are in excess of the state code. (There are a few communities nearby where sprinklers are required in every structure.)

Oh, nearly forgot - listed sprinkler piping (the orange stuff) can be PVC in residential areas. :wink: Thats pretty much it for PVC...