PVC under slab to Island?

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davedottcom

davedottcom

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When running a wire through pvc pipe under a slab to a Kitchen Island for a GFCI outlet is there anything wrong with simply pulling a 12/2 NM romex through the pipe without terminating the pipe at either end? In other words the pipe is cut off at floor level at both ends. It does not terminate to a box at either end. The one end is in a 2x4 studded wall and the other end is under the "Dead Space" of the Island. Is this a violation of any kind? I'm thinking the pipe should have a female adaptor with a romex clamp screwed into it on each end but I don't know if it's necessary!?!?

Dave
 
Re: PVC under slab to Island?

davedottcom,

This has come up several times in the Forum,most concur that romex not allowed in a wet location,ie.under slab.

frank
 
Re: PVC under slab to Island?

Ahhh, ok, so let's say the same situation except using UF. My question really is...Does the pipe need to be terminated to an accesible box or are clamps necessary at both ends?

Dave
 
Re: PVC under slab to Island?

The answer is that it depends on what your AHJ is willing to accept. What you are proposing is not that unusual, but I think an inspector who wanted to fail such an installation would be able to do so without much trouble.

For instance, he/she (there are female inspectors, right) could claim the PVC stub was not adequately secured.

OTOH, it seems like a perfectly safe thing to do.
 
Re: PVC under slab to Island?

the PVC stub was not adequately secured.
Click to expand...
It's surrounded by 4" of concrete...it doesn't get any more secure then that! LOL!

So, I guess it's a AHJ judgement call.
damn judgement calls!

Thanks,

Dave
 
Re: PVC under slab to Island?

I have done it hundreds of time using nm romex not uf.I see it as protective sleeving.However i would run it past your ahj first.
 
Re: PVC under slab to Island?

Originally posted by jimwalker:
I have done it hundreds of time using nm romex not uf.I see it as protective sleeving.
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300.5(D)(5) Listing. Cables and insulated conductors installed in enclosures or raceways in underground installations shall be listed for use in wet locations.
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Jim, NM is a violation even if you have not been caught.
 
Re: PVC under slab to Island?

yes Bob it is,but it has been passing down here for as long as i been wiring.We do the same thing with floor receptacles.Perhaps its being allowed because our floors are not wet.We do usually have an elivation of about 2 feet or more above the road.And our concrete slabs are poured over visqueen.If issue was pushed would you agree that uf meets code ?
 
Re: PVC under slab to Island?

Jim, so you aren't going to point out to an inspector that you just got over on him? ;)

In other-words, by your own admission you know it is a violation, yet you do it because an inspector hasn't busted you yet.


We do the same thing with floor receptacles.Perhaps its being allowed because our floors are not wet.
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What?

I was born and raised there and yes underground or under-slab conduits have moisture in them, if nothing else but from condensation.


Roger

[ March 14, 2005, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
 
Re: PVC under slab to Island?

The inspectors are not blind .They can easily see on a rough that we have a coil of romex coming out of the floor.I am not the only one doing it that way.Have found the same on many fire jobs and there was no signs of damage to the wire when we pulled it out.There are some violations that are just not pushed.In Collier County Fl. we stapled romex to the firing strip on block walls.Have seen on remodels here that it was done in Tampa years ago too.So i am not trying to get away with anything.There should not be a moisture problem with our concrete slabs,that is the reason we put plastic down.
 
Re: PVC under slab to Island?

300.5(D)(5) Listing. Cables and insulated conductors installed in enclosures or raceways in underground installations shall be listed for use in wet locations.
Click to expand...
If the pipe is on top of the plastic, and buried in concret, it isn't underground. So 300.5(D)(5) does not apply.


Dave
 
Re: PVC under slab to Island?

Temperature variations cause condensation in the raceway. Plastic will not stop this from occuring. NM in this application is unacceptable. The fact that it has passed previsouly, does not make it acceptable.
Admitting when wrong takes big shoulders :)
 
Re: PVC under slab to Island?

Originally posted by davedottcom:
300.5(D)(5) Listing. Cables and insulated conductors installed in enclosures or raceways in underground installations shall be listed for use in wet locations.
Click to expand...
If the pipe is on top of the plastic, and buried in concrete, it isn't underground. So 300.5(D)(5) does not apply.
Click to expand...
Perhaps, but...

NEC-2005 100-Definitions.
Location, Wet. Installations under ground or in concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth; in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed to weather.
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300.6 Protection Against Corrosion and Deterioration. (truncated) ...cable sheathing...shall be of materials suitable for the environment in which they are to be installed.
Click to expand...

[ March 15, 2005, 12:22 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 
Re: PVC under slab to Island?

NEC-2005 100-Definitions.
Location, Wet. Installations under ground or in concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth; in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed to weather.
Click to expand...
So...if I run a pvc sleeve, for sleeving NM-B, through a concrete wall that rests on mother earth via a footing of course...how far up this wall is considered wet location, since it's in diret contact with the earth?
 
Re: PVC under slab to Island?

Actually the pvc is ran under the visqueen as we would not want it in direct contact with concrete.
As far as admitting its wrong to use nm i have no problem admiting the letter of code says its a violation.Is it a wet location as per article 100 i say no.Has it caused any problems ? Not that i ever seen.This is another one of them up to local ahj,Witch was what i stated in my first post.If one has one too many wires in a box and the inspector lets it go it is a violation.But is it safe ? We all bend the code some.Perhaps one could use this code to apply to multi floor dwellings that use concrete floors.Now i opened a can of worms :D All of the wiring in floor 1 is under the slab of floor 2 :p
Is my install really underground or above ground ? Or is it on top of the ground ?

[ March 15, 2005, 05:34 AM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
 
Re: PVC under slab to Island?

Jim,
Actually the pvc is ran under the visqueen as we would not want it in direct contact with concrete.
Click to expand...
so it is in direct contact with earth.

Roger
 
Re: PVC under slab to Island?

Like Jim mentioned earlier slabs here in Florida are poured on top of a plastic moisture barrier so... IS the slab in "direct contact" with the Earth? :)

I can see both sides of the NM vs. UF in THIS situation, but what I was originally looking for was...
Is the pipe required to be terminated into an accesible box at either end or are clamps required where the NM OR UF enters/exits the pipe chase?

Dave
 
Re: PVC under slab to Island?

Jim wrote: "Actually the pvc is ran under the visqueen as we would not want it in direct contact with concrete."

Jim, why not in direct contact with concrete?

Dave
 
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