QO 2-Pole AFCIs to be Discontinued

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ramsy said:
A few questions for clarification:

* Are not QO 60k AIC equipment ratings overkill for dwellings that require 20k AIC?

I see QO in dwellings, but never understood why, unless high AIC ratings are needed at multi-unit meter centers, or short distance sub-panels.

* Has not SQ-D QO led this industry in most durable & responsive Magnetic-Trip function, well beyond the few bolted cycles that render other brands junk?

* Was there really enough room in that tiny QO MCCB to fit bleeding-edge AFCI tech. with superior Mag trip design?

Why can't Schneider's SQ-D division differentiate 20k AIC Homeline for the residential AFCI marketplace, and keep QO looking best for the commercial & industrial sectors, which don't require AFCI's?
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nail head Ramsy

where any ocpd incorporates a toriodial the only functionality is lower mag trip

which i suppose becomes moot, juxtaposed to higher AIC ocpd's

~RJ~
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I bet they will be selling only afci/gfci combo breakers in both sp and dp but that is a guess. I noticed that the sp gfci's were hard to find at home depot and lowes but the combo afci/gfci seemed to be plentiful. Maybe just marketing IDK
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I think that possibly more of big box marketing thing than by Schneider.

Menards, a midwestern big box, you won't find the plug on neutral AFCI/GFCI's for the most part. I think they just choose not to sell them for some reason.
 
ramsy said:
A few questions for clarification:

* Are not QO 60k AIC equipment ratings overkill for dwellings that require 20k AIC?

I see QO in dwellings, but never understood why, unless high AIC ratings are needed at multi-unit meter centers, or short distance sub-panels.

* Has not SQ-D QO led this industry in most durable & responsive Magnetic-Trip function, well beyond the few bolted cycles that render other brands junk?

* Was there really enough room in that tiny QO MCCB to fit bleeding-edge AFCI tech. with superior Mag trip design?

Why can't Schneider's SQ-D division differentiate 20k AIC Homeline for the residential AFCI marketplace, and keep QO looking best for the commercial & industrial sectors, which don't require AFCI's?
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Standard QO breakers have the same 10K rating as HOM and all other manufactures (Siemens, Eaton, ABB). QO's are available in up to 65K. QO AfCI's and DF's are available in 10K and 22K. I believe HOM only offers 10K. In the residential market its not common to need branch breakers over 10K since you can use a series rating with feeder breaker or main breaker in load center.

Both QO and HOM loadcenters are rated for 22K.

Square D intended HOM to be residential and QO to be commercial. I was a test contractor when HOM was introduced. I was told the reason for HOM was to create 2 different prices for residential vs commercial. Previously they had to sell QO at the residential prices so the commercial contractor were able to take advantage of the lower prices. Separating the 2 allowed QO to be sold at higher price points to commercial contractors. It all about marketing not cost to produce.

The build cost for QO vs HOM loadcenters is minimal for Square D. QO does have CU buss vs AL for HOM but QO loadcenters are shorter than HOM.

QO and HOM breakers share the same internals. The difference is the case and the red flag with QO. This is the reason HOM AFCI and DF have that long case compared to everyone else. They had to build the electronics to fit in a 3/4" wide breaker vs 1" wide breaker.

I have a special purchase agreement for SquareD and I get better pricing than someone that doesn't have pricing set up. The big residential shops get HOM for even less than I pay. If I'm ordering any panelboards through the power guys at my supply house SquareD has priced QO breakers and loadcenters less than I get HOM for if they are included on the order.
 
Thanks Curt, for clarifying the details between SQ-D product lines.

I see OQ price point for residential jobs, given enough spaces for 1P AFCI's.

I don't see losing 2P AFCI's killing MWBC use at Laundry or Kitchen DW/Disposal locations, if QO Dual-Function GFCI/AFCI breakers are still available.

If reset buttons must be located at appliance outlets, on MWBC, then MC cable to metal box works, per 210.12(A)5, with DF outlets vs 2P-DF breaker.

If Red Tagged for resets being under sink, "Readily Accessible" DF outlets for DW/Disposer can go closer to cabinet doors under sink, or go without any doors.
 
The only way to abate remodel hazards for insurance compliance, from a Pushmatic, etc. that wont budge, is if that client also accepts AFCI outlets at first switch-box openings.

Same with existing MWBC's at every circuit, found in some dwellings, if furniture or appliances don't block the reset buttons at wall outlets.
 
Leviton customer support has tried to point out an AFCI excpection that I can't find.

"Please see below regarding 210.12.A4:"
"Exception No 4: AFCI protection shall not be required for branch circuits that serve an appliance that is not easily moved or that is fastened in place."

Does such an exception exist with 2020 NEC?. Can't find it with the 2017 NEC.
 
From the original post:
cea said:
GE THQL1120AF2, which is a single-pole 120V CAFI that as of Mod 3 no longer does any sensing on the neutral, so it can be used on circuits where the neutral is landed on the bus bar, or combined in pairs with a handle tie for shared neutral applications.
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Thank you for the information about an option that still can be used for installing circuits with shared neutral wires. It took me a while to find documentation for this. It is in a GE publication numbered DET-719.

What about other brands? Siemens and Eaton still make AFCI breakers to be used on shared-neutral circuits?
 
Eaton 1P BR AFCI can't do shared neutrals.

Taken from CAUTION box on page 2:
SINGLE-POLE DF, AF, OR GF CANNOT BE USED TO PROTECT SHARED-NEUTRAL CIRCUITS.

DO NOT PERFORM A MEGGER OR A HIGH VOLTAGE TEST WITH THE BREAKER IN PLACE; REMOVE THE DF, AF, OR GF BREAKER PRIOR TO HI-POT TESTING OF THE CIRCUIT.

ELECTRIC RANGES AND CLOTHES DRYERS WITH FRAMES GROUNDED BY CONNECTION TO THE GROUNDED CONDUCTOR, AS PERMITTED BY THE NEC, IT SHOULD NOT BE CONNECTED TO THE LOAD CIRCUIT OF THIS DF, AF, OR GF BREAKER.
 
ramsy said:
Why can't Schneider's SQ-D division differentiate 20k AIC Homeline for the residential AFCI marketplace, and keep QO looking best for the commercial & industrial sectors, which don't require AFCI's?
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A better question is, why can't the NEC remove all the AFCI requirements from the Code and ALL manufacturers quit making them, since they don't really prevent any fires as they want you to believe. Michigan is already wise to this BS, and the rest of the states need to follow suit.

Think about it for a minute.. is a house built before AFCI requirements (say, 1996) really any less safe to live in than one built today? NO!
 
jeff48356 said:
A better question is, why can't the NEC remove all the AFCI requirements from the Code and ALL manufacturers quit making them, since they don't really prevent any fires as they want you to believe. Michigan is already wise to this BS, and the rest of the states need to follow suit.

Think about it for a minute.. is a house built before AFCI requirements (say, 1996) really any less safe to live in than one built today? NO!
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AFCI's are basically junk science

Inasmuch as i keep asking what >>>electrical theory<<< is behind them , i seem to get nothing but propaganda

This is because all the major players in this trade SOLD OUT

including this site

~RJ~
 
romex jockey said:
AFCI's are basically junk science

Inasmuch as i keep asking what >>>electrical theory<<< is behind them , i seem to get nothing but propaganda

This is because all the major players in this trade SOLD OUT

including this site

~RJ~
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I'm not sold out, but still have to pass inspections.
 
ramsy said:
Eaton 1P BR AFCI can't do shared neutrals.
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They do have a 2-pole combination arc-fault breaker, though, the BRL215CAF or BRL220CAF. Stock seems very limited, so I am not sure if they still make them, or if the supply house I'm checking just didn't ever decide to stock those.

Siemens has something similar, and I actually find those in stock when I check. They even have a PON version available at Home Depot. It might be an item that is only distributed through Home Depot, I am not sure. The model number is Q220AFCNP. The pigtail version is just Q220AFC.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I bet they will be selling only afci/gfci combo breakers in both sp and dp but that is a guess. I noticed that the sp gfci's were hard to find at home depot and lowes but the combo afci/gfci seemed to be plentiful. Maybe just marketing IDK
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As far as I can tell, they never made a dual-fault two-pole breaker. So, the phase out of arc-fault ones really leaves nothing to replace them with.
 
Mr. Serious said:
As far as I can tell, they never made a dual-fault two-pole breaker. So, the phase out of arc-fault ones really leaves nothing to replace them with.
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As far as i can tell, they've never made an 'anything fault' breaker

But we would need to be privy to some serious details, which we are not Mr S

Sad, that an 'educational' site would degrade itself to such a standard....

~RJ~
 
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