Quad Breaker Handle Ties?

[ESolar]

HOMT2020230CP quad breaker, described as (outer) 2 x 1-pole 20A, (inner) 1 x 2-pole 30A. Wanting to use the outer 20A breakers as a 2-pole 240. But I'm not finding handle ties for this. Anybody have a suggestion? Maybe the Eaton ties work?

 

[tthh]

I don't think you're gonna find any handle ties for the outside pair on a tandem. Yon need this one instead: HOMT220230

 

[ESolar]

Yes I just saw that one. I already had the other. But that could work.

 

[tthh]

It is a little strange. Some online sellers show HOMT220230 as what you have. SquareD website shows HOMT220230 as the right one with both handle ties. Make sure they are sending you the right one.

 

[ESolar]

It is a little strange. Some online sellers show HOMT220230 as what you have. SquareD website shows HOMT220230 as the right one with both handle ties. Make sure they are sending you the right one.

HOMT2020230CP - 2 x 1-Pole 20A
HOMT220230CP - 1 x 2-Pole 20A
Its very annoying that they make these as separate products instead of with optional handle ties.

 

[GoldDigger]

I don't think you're gonna find any handle ties for the outside pair on a tandem. Yon need this one instead: HOMT220230

https://www.se.com/us/en/product/HO...-2-pole-at-30a-120-240-v-10ka-air-plug-in-ul/ shows it to be two-two pole circuits, each with common trip. But the photos do not make it clear that there are two two-pole handle ties rather than a single 4 handle tie. The three dimensional layout of the tie(s) just does not show up in a three view orthogonal format. The fact that all of the parts are black does not help.
Providing common trip between the two outside poles requires some interesting internal geometry. Because of free trip construction the handle tie does not provide common trip.

https://www.se.com/us/en/product/HO...2-pole-at-30a-120-240vac-10ka-air-plug-in-ul/ , on the other hand, is clearly described as a single two-pole 30A (common trip) and two indpendent single pole 20A breakers. For most applications you would have for a two pole 20A breaker the NEC requires common trip (the main exception being an MWBC) so just adding an outer handle tie might not help you anyway.

PS: I would never trust retailer documentation in a situation like this!

 

[jaggedben]

I was going to say Homeline does not support this at all but I stand corrected above. Learn something new everyday.

I'm not aware of any manufacturer that provides a user installed handle tie for the outer poles of a quad.

 

[ESolar]

I was going to say Homeline does not support this at all but I stand corrected above. Learn something new everyday.

I'm not aware of any manufacturer that provides a user installed handle tie for the outer poles of a quad.

Eaton does - THOW. And it looks like it would fit the HOMT.

THOW Eaton - New Handle Tie

THOW EATON (Cutler Hammer) | CB Accessories | New | BR | N/A Pole | N/A Amps | N/A VAC | HandleTie | | | EATON (Cutler Hammer) CB Accessories

www.coasttocoastbreaker.com

 

[Jraef]

Eaton does - THOW. And it looks like it would fit the HOMT.

THOW Eaton - New Handle Tie

THOW EATON (Cutler Hammer) | CB Accessories | New | BR | N/A Pole | N/A Amps | N/A VAC | HandleTie | | | EATON (Cutler Hammer) CB Accessories

www.coasttocoastbreaker.com

Doesn’t matter. If the Sq.D breaker is not listed to use this handle tie (and it is not), then it can’t be used, even if it fits.

 

[Jraef]

There is a LOT of confusion on how to implement quad breakers, let me see if I can clear it up.

A) Any 2 POLE breaker that is used for a 120/240V load or an MWBC MUST HAVE A COMMON TRIP. In Quad breakers that is ONLY the middle two poles, it is NEVER the outer two poles, there is no way to make them have a common trip from afar (without joining them with the inner poles, see C)).

B) The outer two poles can be joined together by a clip, and THAT can be used for STRAIGHT 240V loads, meaning appliances or circuits that do NOT have a neutral run to them, such as a water heater. That is the ONLY legitimate use for the outer pole clips.

C) (I’m not 100% sure on this, but this is what I was told by a Schneider guy) Schneider (Square D Homeline) has that quad that has ALL FOUR handles tied together. In that case, the outer two poles ARE common trip, but they are ALSO common trip with the INNER two poles as well, because that’s the only way to make that work. So the drawback to this is that if one appliance overloads, you will shut down BOTH appliances. A legit application for that might be a tankless water heater or stove and oven combo where each element needs its own 120/240 circuit, but if one trips, they both trip. You can use it any way you like of course, but you have to accept that quirk of both separate circuits tripping together.

 

[wwhitney]

A) Any 2 POLE breaker that is used for a 120/240V load or an MWBC MUST HAVE A COMMON TRIP.

That's not what 210.4(C) says. 210.4(B) requires common disconnect for any MWBC (which would include any circuit for a 120/240V load), but 210.4(C) and its exceptions say that common trip is only required when the MWBC serves more than one load, not all of which are L-N.

So an individual branch circuit for a 120/240V load does not require common trip, nor does an MWBC that serves only L-N loads.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[tthh]

There is a LOT of confusion on how to implement quad breakers, let me see if I can clear it up.

A) Any 2 POLE breaker that is used for a 120/240V load or an MWBC MUST HAVE A COMMON TRIP. In Quad breakers that is ONLY the middle two poles, it is NEVER the outer two poles, there is no way to make them have a common trip from afar (without joining them with the inner poles, see C)).

B) The outer two poles can be joined together by a clip, and THAT can be used for STRAIGHT 240V loads, meaning appliances or circuits that do NOT have a neutral run to them, such as a water heater. That is the ONLY legitimate use for the outer pole clips.

C) (I’m not 100% sure on this, but this is what I was told by a Schneider guy) Schneider (Square D Homeline) has that quad that has ALL FOUR handles tied together. In that case, the outer two poles ARE common trip, but they are ALSO common trip with the INNER two poles as well, because that’s the only way to make that work. So the drawback to this is that if one appliance overloads, you will shut down BOTH appliances. A legit application for that might be a tankless water heater or stove and oven combo where each element needs its own 120/240 circuit, but if one trips, they both trip. You can use it any way you like of course, but you have to accept that quirk of both separate circuits tripping together.

I'd modify this a little. At least Siemens has tandem quad breakers have three versions: (1) all four independent trip and no handle ties, (2) inside two common trip with handle tie and outside two are independent trip without handle tie, (3) inside two common trip with handle tie and outside two are common trip with handle tie.

 

[jaggedben]

...
COMMON TRIP. In Quad breakers that is ONLY the middle two poles, it is NEVER the outer two poles, there is no way to make them have a common trip from afar (without joining them with the inner poles, see C)). ...

Not never. See for example Siemens Q2x0x0CT2.

 

[Jraef]

OK, I stand corrected! This is new to me, I wonder how they are implementing it? I have to imagine that these are NOT created from two separate twins, they must be building them as a complete quad so that there can be an internal trip link between the outer poles.

But still, do NOT assume that adding the retrofit clips to a quad creates a true 2 pole breaker on the outer poles, they need to specifically say “Common Trip” on those outer poles.

 

[GoldDigger]

OK, I stand corrected! This is new to me, I wonder how they are implementing it? I have to imagine that these are NOT created from two separate twins, they must be building them as a complete quad so that there can be an internal trip link between the outer poles.

But still, do NOT assume that adding the retrofit clips to a quad creates a true 2 pole breaker on the outer poles, they need to specifically say “Common Trip” on those outer poles.

And, to keep things interesting, just having common trip does not remove the need for handle ties where the code requires them.

 

[wwhitney]

And, to keep things interesting, just having common trip does not remove the need for handle ties where the code requires them.

If I take a standard double pole breaker and saw the handle in half, manually turning one pole off will not turn off the other pole via whatever mechanical linkage exists to provide the common trip?

Cheers, Wayne

 

[tthh]

If I take a standard double pole breaker and saw the handle in half, manually turning one pole off will not turn off the other pole via whatever mechanical linkage exists to provide the common trip?

Cheers, Wayne

I haven't disassembled too many breaks, but at least some have mechanical ties within the body of the breaker as well or between the sandwiched two halves. So, perhaps it would remain common trip without a handle tie?? -- not sure about that, never tried.

 

[wwhitney]

So, perhaps it would remain common trip without a handle tie?? -- not sure about that, never tried.

It definitely should remain common trip without a handle tie. Breakers are required to be "trip free", so whatever you do to the handle doesn't impede the tripping mechanism.

The question is whether it would remain common disconnect without the handle tie. Golddigger's comment implied that you could have a breaker that is common trip without being common disconnect. My first thought was that the internal common trip mechanism would also force common disconnect.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[LarryFine]

My first thought was that the internal common trip mechanism would also force common disconnect.

I'm fairly certain that it does not.

 

[jaggedben]

If I take a standard double pole breaker and saw the handle in half, manually turning one pole off will not turn off the other pole via whatever mechanical linkage exists to provide the common trip?

Cheers, Wayne

No it will not. Got a number of 2 pole breakers around the shop that have missing handle ties for whatever reason, and you can turn them on and off independently.

Note that you cannot put the poles in the tripped position manually either.