Qualified person?

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Re: Qualified person?

Wow Roger, I did not know you have had that horrible experience!! I am sure glad you are still with us, I have learned an incredible amount from you.
 
Re: Qualified person?

ok just what equipment would you have suggested ?This was 120 volts and he was on fiberglass ladder with only insulated tools.And i instructed him step by step.There was never a chance of him touching anything else nor did i let him get across 2 wires.I can see where your attitude would have changed and am sorry you had an accident.Just what went wrong ? I must assume you made a wrong move.
 
Re: Qualified person?

Bryan, thank you for your post.
I have learned an incredible amount from you.
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Be assured that has not been a one way street.
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Jim, the bottom line is there is very few instances where installing while hot is necessary, and if it is, the PPE requirements are in OSHA's standards as well as NFPA 70E.

In my case it was a hospital, and after the incident a shut down was actually in progress anyways. The rest of the installation was finished by the other electrician while I was taken to the ER. This was while waiting for the POCO to get their end back on line, I took out the whole neighborhood.

Roger
 
Re: Qualified person?

I've tried for years to expose the difference
between installers and electricians. I have to believe that most everyone who participates in these type forums are honestly trying to become a better electrician. There are always a-holes who are trying to "show" what they know as opposed to "sharing" what they know. They're insecure!!
 
Re: Qualified person?

Originally posted by jimwalker:
ok just what equipment would you have suggested ?This was 120 volts and he was on fiberglass ladder with only insulated tools.And i instructed him step by step.There was never a chance of him touching anything else nor did i let him get across 2 wires.I can see where your attitude would have changed and am sorry you had an accident.Just what went wrong ? I must assume you made a wrong move.
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When are you faster, Jim? When you're trying not to get zapped, or when you diagnose the problem, kill it and get it done?

I work a helluva lot faster when I kill the power, and I am in a production-driven area. You can't man up and grab hold of things, make the wires line up as well if it's hot, period. If you try to maintain a speed with it hot, you'll get zapped.

Why bother?!? :mad:
 
Re: Qualified person?

Hi, Just wondering how do you do overhead services if you won't work HOT.Maybe it's different in other states but here in Michigan you are responsible for your splices back into poco.So for overhead You have to cut power HOT and change service out , Then have to Splice power back in HOT.
 
Re: Qualified person?

I too have changed out overhead services without poco shutdown.Lost count of how many times :D This was up north in higher paying area. Point being Linemen work live everyday of the week,pay attention to what you are doing respect the force you are dealing with.Take the proper precautions,proper procedures when working live.We are electricians not plumbers we get zapped not wet they dry out we get dead.Every time I work on a circuit I have my fluke with me to assume it was dead because it was dead the last time I was there is foolish,I don`t like the ticker detectors(You know the ones I mean the little ones we carry in our top pocket)I use a digital meter first thing I do is test from ground to line voltage and then if dead I still treat it as if live!!!!! :D I respect the force I am dealing with and respect it.This is all single phase 240 now go into 3 phase well that is another story,I look at that in a whole new picture :eek:
 
Re: Qualified person?

That "qualified person" thing and the OSHA impact is getting a lot of attention nationally. If you haven't seen OSHA it is because there have been no reportable accidents for them to catch your scent. Once they get on your tail, they will ask for the training records to see if the person injured was "trained on the specific hazards of the job". If they weren't or wasn't following the written electrical safety policy (got one of those yet?) you could be in a world of hurt...financially speaking. Plenty of testimonies out there.....
This safety stuff is, with a little luck, a monumental waste of time and money.....just like the smoke detector outside your kids bedroom; when you need it, you'd pay anything for it.
It's a pain for sure but, I got used to wearing a seatbelt in my car after they started writing tickets. Now, it's natural to wear one. That is where they are driving this electrical safety business, to make it instinctive.
 
Re: Qualified person?

"When are you faster, Jim? When you're trying not to get zapped, or when you diagnose the problem, kill it and get it done?"

George,this is not always about speed.Sometimes it's about keeping customer happy as possable.Sure We could shut the lights off and stop 120 people from working for an hour or 2.Sure we could schedule for poco to turn off power to change them services at a house.Might need to refigure that bid with the time waiting on poco add 4 hours.
 
Re: Qualified person?

Somewhere in this thread someone spoke of not worrying about working 120/240 hot - but not 277/480! One of my apprenticeship classmates, both of us having reached jouneyman status about a year prior, was killed working under his house - by 120V. To those who fear their employer's wrath - an anonymous call to OSHA mandates a visit to that employer's site. I've known too many fellow electricians killed or maimed to want to join their ranks.
 
Re: Qualified person?

Jim, with all your court room experience, what's going to happen when a lawyer gets ahold of this reasoning after say, you short a circuit and shut down a line in the middle of production or your helper gets shocked and calls OSHA?

It has nothing to do with you "asking" him to do it, it's about you "allowing" him to do it.

Roger
 
Re: Qualified person?

I have read all of the posts since the last time I jumped in here. It seems as if there are 2 sides here work it hot or shut it off. Those same sides say 120/240 no big thing, 277/480 or 3 phase shut it off every time. I have checked several places in differant texts I own and even asked a couple of doctors, and evry thying says IT AIN'T THE VOLTAGE THAT KILLS YOU. Current is what makes us taste dirt. I never said I do not trouble shoot live circuits. I never said I never work hot. Like Roger I spend my days in a hospital, like Roger I have been in an electrical accident. I still work hot, but I do it with the right PPE and if I can I shut it off. As far as those of you in production saying you can't shut off all the lights in a factory for an hour while you work. Why would you have to? 1 circuit should not kill all the lights in the factory.
Back to the orginal question though. Are you a qualified individual? If you belive that you have to shut off every circuit to change a light bulb, no you are not. If you understand the construction and maintenance of the equipment you are working on you may be. There is more to making you a qualified individual than just being able to spell electricity.
If you do not know when or what or even why you need PPE then you are not a qualfied electrician. Learn the rules. For those of you who are the bosses, buy the equipment, train your employees in the proper uses and make them use it.
Those of you who are the workers insist on this equipment and training and the utilize it. Yes I have spent my time in a 50 cal. suit with gloves and a hood.
For the gentleman that watches a guy touch 120/240 house panels and say yep it is live. RUN AWAY FROM HIM. That is an accident waiting to happen. For the fluke is my best friend guy, great but how often do you check your checker?
 
Re: Qualified person?

The problem with lower voltages is the complacency when working on lower volatge systems. In the February 05 Electrical Contractor Magazine, David Shapiro writes;

A collegue, Mike Cole, pointed out, "OSHA requires that when doing hot line work on 120 volts, you use the same procedures as when doing hot line work on 12,000 volts." That looks to me like overstatement, but I still have to grant his point. In some ways, actually, residences offer extra danger, because we may be less inclined to "work scared."
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Re: Qualified person?

I don't know the number's but I'm sure there is no doubt or argument that 120 V has killed more people than the higher voltages.
 
Re: Qualified person?

There are approximately 8000 electricians that are hurt annually at work. of those 8000 or so approximately 2000 are shock and arc flash hazards causing varying degree of burn of that 2000 approximately 450 + or - die generally from infection of open wounds. I can look the figure up but these are about the numbers expressed at a recent trainers seminar on NFPA 70E.

70E is the standard that OSHA will and is using to cite un safe electrical work practices. Section 130 describes procedures for performing work within established boundaries. It can be as simple as FR Clothing Shirt and Slacks and Gloves to Full switching suits and insulated tools (with the double diamond) We can ignore this stuff or we can get fined everyone needs to asses there risk electrically and financially.

Charlie P
 
Re: Qualified person?

Why doesn't OSHA visit job sites before there is a death ? If they did then EC would provide for there men.Coming after a man is killed solves nothing except for them to get money.
 
Re: Qualified person?

Jim the same reason a officer of the law can not come into your house and start searching it. It's called probable cause. It would seem like a good idea but it would throw away everything our fore-fathers fought for, The right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure's. And a company also has this right.
 
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