qualified

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puckman

Senior Member
Location
ridgewood, n.j.
It seems to easy for an employer to say some one is qualified to work with electricity. It seems to all they have to say the magic word and they have trades people.
Just my view on this one , I have personal beef with this .
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
It seems to easy for an employer to say some one is qualified to work with electricity. It seems to all they have to say the magic word and they have trades people.
Just my view on this one , I have personal beef with this .

They can just say the magic word but in the event of an accident OSHA will make them justify thier "qualification" of that person. OSHA will and has many times fined employers lack of a true qualfication program.

According to the NFPA 70E, a ?Qualified Person" is one who is trained and knowledgeable of the construction and operation of the equipment or the specific work method, and be trained to recognize the hazards present with respect to that equipment or work method.

Such persons shall also be familiar with the use of the precautionary techniques, personal protective equipment, insulating and shielding materials, and insulated tools and test equipment. A person can be considered qualified with respect to certain tasks but still be unqualified for others.

An employee that is undergoing on the job training and who, in the course of such training, has demonstrated the ability to perform duties safely at his or her level of training and who is under the direct supervision of a qualified person shall be considered to be a qualified person for the performance of those duties.
 

celtic

Senior Member
Location
NJ
It seems to easy for an employer to say some one is qualified to work with electricity. It seems to all they have to say the magic word and they have trades people.
Just my view on this one , I have personal beef with this .


That's probably going to change in the near future.
In order for one to be deemed "qualified" it is NOT the boss's word ~ but documentation submitted to the State and then the individual is deemed "qualified".

The State [actually the Board of Examiners of Electrical Contractors] is well aware of the "qualified" "situation"....and while the actual law has been on the books for some time, new legislation [?] has been enacted AND is actually in the process of being enforced.

Here is recent thread: NJ "Qualified Journeyman" Card?
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
That's probably going to change in the near future.
In order for one to be deemed "qualified" it is NOT the boss's word ~ but documentation submitted to the State and then the individual is deemed "qualified".

The State [actually the Board of Examiners of Electrical Contractors] is well aware of the "qualified" "situation"....and while the actual law has been on the books for some time, new legislation [?] has been enacted AND is actually in the process of being enforced.

Here is recent thread: NJ "Qualified Journeyman" Card?

You are talking about a different qualfication than the OP. You are right for being qualified to do electrical installations, but the OP is asking (I think) about the NFPA 70E "qualification" which can only be done by the employer. The 70E makes no mention of the word "Electrician" in any iof its qualifiication requirements. In fact most "qualified electricians"" (JM and masters) are not qualified per the 70E.
 

celtic

Senior Member
Location
NJ
You are talking about a different qualfication than the OP. You are right for being qualified to do electrical installations, but the OP is asking (I think) about the NFPA 70E "qualification" which can only be done by the employer.


I dunno...maybe you are talking about a different type of qualification than the OP and me :grin:


Wanna play rock-paper-scissors until the OP returns and straightens this mess out?
 

puckman

Senior Member
Location
ridgewood, n.j.
From the conversation i had it was about qualifing a worker with nfpa 70e training. They are people who at best are maintenance people and some department heads with limit electrical experience. At most they remove and replace devices or a motor that does'nt work with a new one, there is no troubleshooting invovled.

What level will this training give them in doing electrical work? I do not believe it can be about making someone a qualified journeymen without working behind a licensed electrician but I don,t know. I was told it was nfpa 70e training but if it is a company safety policy training would this change anything in a person being qualified worker.
What makes a trainer qualified to train in nfpa 70e classes?
Sorry for taking so long on returning to site.

Thanks for all responses.
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
From the conversation i had it was about qualifing a worker with nfpa 70e training. They are people who at best are maintenance people and some department heads with limit electrical experience. At most they remove and replace devices or a motor that does'nt work with a new one, there is no troubleshooting invovled.

Nothing wrong with that

What level will this training give them in doing electrical work?

None, zero, zilch, nada,

I do not believe it can be about making someone a qualified journeymen without working behind a licensed electrician but I don,t know. I was told it was nfpa 70e training but if it is a company safety policy training would this change anything in a person being qualified worker.

Again you need to understand what the 70E qualification is, it has nohing to do with a JM or being a licensed electrician.

What makes a trainer qualified to train in nfpa 70e classes?

Nothing, are there are a bunch of really bad programs/trainers out there.


Ask for a resume for the instructor, what are his qualifications? What boards and commitees has he sat on regarding the topic? What professional papers has he published?

Ask for references and actually call some of them, most training managers will be happy to give you feedback on a class and trainer.

What is the work history of the trainer? Is he just reading a canned course or is he really an expert in the feild with real life experience?

Look at the company, and the courses they offer. A red flag is a company that provides CPR, ladder safety, forklift, and oh yeah, we do arc flash training too. Look for a company that also provides arc flash surverys, engineering studies and other power system services. You want a real expert.

Your training should fit your specific needs, an Electrical Contractor has very different training needs than a large manufacturing plant. There is no such thing as a one size fits all training course. I used to customize every class I did based on the clients needs.

If the trainer does not ask you questions about your existing ESWP's, arc flash syudy, PPE program and request a pre training meeting, thats another red flag. Unless it is an open enrollment course, which is usually not as effective as one at your facility made just for you.

Remmember your training is a much larger investment than the course fee, you are setting a culture in motion that will determine how you do everything, from your PPE program, to your hazard analysis method, to your disipline program for non-compliance.

One more thing, if someone says they offer a 70E "Certification" course, run.
 

Goroon

Member
Today's Trends in hiring are changing.

Today's Trends in hiring are changing.

Supervisors and managers, especially those who do not have an electrical background, need to be educated in the hazards of electricity, especially if they supervise electrical workers, whether they do it directly or indirectly.

A recient "New Hire" we have was "qualified" by our HR based on that persons acceptance of a "Pay Rate" lower than the other applicants.

The finial selection only had 1/6th of the input from Electrical Staff.
We are now expected to train this person who has GREAT! computer skills for PM entry and Outlook E-Mails, but has never worked over 480V. His new work scope covers 13.5Kv.

Who's safety is at stake here when he was deemed Qualified.
 

bobsherwood

Senior Member
Location
Dallas TX
In Texas, it's the state that determines to what degree a person can do electrical work. It is our safety department who must qualify the on staff electricians. As yet, they have not qualified anyone! They want me to do it... We are trying to work together, risk management and the electrical staff to write guide lines and start qualifying... it's not an easy task!
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
We are now expected to train this person who has GREAT! computer skills for PM entry and Outlook E-Mails, but has never worked over 480V. His new work scope covers 13.5Kv.

Who's safety is at stake here when he was deemed Qualified.

Sounds like your is. Have you asked management what makes him "Qualified"? Many plants have different catagories of qualified persons. In fact if you read the definition you will see it is impossible for anyone to be considered qualified on all types of electrical systems.
 

pfalcon

Senior Member
Location
Indiana
NFPA79:2007 refers to NFPA70 refers to NFAP70E so everyone should be living by:

Qualified Person. One who has skills and knowledge related to the construction and operation of the electrical equipment and installations and has received safety training to recognize and avoid the hazards involved.

IF OSHA investigates a site and IF OSHA asks about the company program to qualify people THEN they will expect the company to provide proof that they are requiring the content from Article 100.

Until then the company can slide by with whatever they have. So the issue really isn't whether the "HR assistant" or a "Lower Pay" scale qualify a person or not. According to NFPA 70, 70E, 79 they are not qualified. The real issue is whether anyone with authority is going to stop by and hang the company for bad practices.
 

joebell

Senior Member
Location
New Hampshire
Again you need to understand what the 70E qualification is, it has nohing to do with a JM or being a licensed electrician.

This is an argument that I have with my company, they are of the opinion that a licensed electrician is a qualified person, I don't see it that way.

They can just say the magic word but in the event of an accident OSHA will make them justify thier "qualification" of that person. OSHA will and has many times fined employers lack of a true qualfication program.

Zog the problem here is the lack of a qualification standard. Its all well and good OSHA will check the training "paper trail" but that only happens after an event has occured.
 
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thosey

Member
Qualified within my corporation

Qualified within my corporation

I am currently in charge of 68 facilities within the United States to get them audited and labeled for Arc Flash and receive PE stamps for all single lines. By the way, the company that I work with on this is Herzig Engineering. They are one of the best engineering firms that I have ever worked with.
I myself had questions on who was qualified defined under OSHA 1926.32(M). Actually, this is to cover mechanical and all other types of work also.

OSHA 1926.32(M): "Qualified" means one who, by possession of a recognized degree, certificate, or professional standing, or who by extensive knowledge, training, and experience, has successfully demonstrated his ability to solve or resolve problems relating to the subject matter, the work, or the project.

What I did for my company is that each plant receives four hours of training on Arc Flash. At the end of this all maintenance and other personnel take an electrical test. It is a mixture of questions and is produced in such a way that I have a scale to evaluate people with. However, the corporate standard is that you must make a 70% or better on the test to be considered qualified. The test is issued by Herzig and was produced by them with my input.
My format is below.
< 70% Should not work on Electric without help from a qualified person.
70 to 78% Should not work on energized electric
79 to 87% Able to work on energized electric abiding to the print.
88 to 100% Able to work outside of prints and on energized electric

After taking the test, it is to be reviewed with the test taker and his supervisor or someone that scores well on the test. After this the test goes into their file in HR to show proof of the (has successfully demonstrated his ability to solve or resolve problems relating to the subject matter).

This way if OSHA is to walk in and ask whom is qualified then we have a system in place.
So far, I have put 24 plants through this and have a few divisions to go. Most of the time after explaining my stance the plant agrees with it and thanks me for having such a turn key setup for them.

At least I have started something to standardize our corporation with what is qualified. I do know that NC and Georgia OSHA have also agreed with this concept and have re awarded the Star rating for OSHA compliancy to one plant in each state.
 
They can just say the magic word but in the event of an accident OSHA will make them justify thier "qualification" of that person. OSHA will and has many times fined employers lack of a true qualfication program.

According to the NFPA 70E, a ?Qualified Person" is one who is trained and knowledgeable of the construction and operation of the equipment or the specific work method, and be trained to recognize the hazards present with respect to that equipment or work method.

Such persons shall also be familiar with the use of the precautionary techniques, personal protective equipment, insulating and shielding materials, and insulated tools and test equipment. A person can be considered qualified with respect to certain tasks but still be unqualified for others.

An employee that is undergoing on the job training and who, in the course of such training, has demonstrated the ability to perform duties safely at his or her level of training and who is under the direct supervision of a qualified person shall be considered to be a qualified person for the performance of those duties.

This pretty well rounds up the usual suspects.:grin:

I would have to add two things though;
  1. Knowledge about the specific equipment that they intend to service.
  2. Demonstrated profficiency. Ex.: If I haven't programmed a specific PLC for several years, I will have different profficiency from someone who does it today on a daily basis. This is of course much more critical for live work.
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
[*]Demonstrated profficiency. Ex.: If I haven't programmed a specific PLC for several years, I will have different profficiency from someone who does it today on a daily basis. This is of course much more critical for live work.
[/LIST]

70E address that too, 110.6(D)(4)(d) Tasks that are performed less often than once per year shall require re-training before performance of the work practice involved.
 
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