Quality of plans

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jimport

jimport

Senior Member
Location
Outside Baltimore Maryland
Occupation
Master Electrician
Just wondering how others are seeing the plans for their jobs. The last couple I have see are not even close to meeting code on wire sizing, receptacle spacing. One set didn't even show power run to several appliances including a cooktop and grill. These are stamped drawing, yet I have to do their job and explain the issues.
 
You mention receptacle spacing.
Are you talking about residential?

The only times I've seen residential electrical plans were multifamily.

Just bidding one now, it only has reflected ceiling plan showing lighting. No power plan, no service diagram, etc
 
I did a lot of consulting for a major engineering firm, their biggest complaint was customers would not give them specs on customer supplied equipment, so they would just have to guess.
If that is a high rise, it will have prints for at least the core. Individual buildouts may be different.
 
In these parts, the only way you'll get any kind of residential electrical plan is when there is a designer involved.

And even then, it's only going to be a lighting plan or possibly a few receptacles that are in exact specified locations
 
May have changed but a few years back I questioned the State as to the Code violations on State approved plans and, at that time, they had no one in the plans review office that could handle electrical and simply accepted the drawings and expected the EI to catch violations.
 
jimport said:
Just wondering how others are seeing the plans for their jobs. The last couple I have see are not even close to meeting code on wire sizing, receptacle spacing. One set didn't even show power run to several appliances including a cooktop and grill. These are stamped drawing, yet I have to do their job and explain the issues.
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The person whom is sending you electrical plans in the state of Maryland needs to be a licensed professional engineer, and proves it by stamping the electrical plans. Otherwise they are practicing engineering without a license.
They define the practice of engineering pretty broadly:

(j) (1) “Practice engineering” means to provide any service or creative work the performance of which requires education, training, and experience in the application of:

(i) special knowledge of the mathematical, physical, and engineering sciences; and

(ii) the principles and methods of engineering analysis and design.

(2) In regard to a building or other structure, machine, equipment, process, works, system, project, or public or private utility, “practice engineering” includes:

(i) consultation;

(ii) design;
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If you are a licensed master electrician then you can design your own work that you and or your company performs. You can take your customers 'sketch' and develop it into a set of electrical plans as needed. However you cannot sell those plans to your customer unless you'r under contract to do the work or your also a PE.

Building departments don't require engineered plans to pass plan review for residential, so in the eyes of the laws of 'errors and omissions ' and professional liability, legally the master electrician is the one whom 'made the plans' for most any residential project.
 
jimport said:
This is a 6500 square foot high rise condo with stamped prints from architect and engineers.
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One common issue we run into is what we show vs whats actually installed. Lighting is typicaly based on our recommended locations and foot candles, power devices are shown based on minimum number of devices per spacing required unless theres a convenience issue. If there are receptacles behind living room couch or behind bedroom bed location, we'll add another in that space and space out accordingly so theyre accessible and convenient for the end user.

When the plans go to construction, many times project comes in overbudget and EC will take over design to cut cost. We typically see number of lights get reduced to the absolute minimum (assuming they will be having lamps for lighting), and receptacles reduced back to minimum regardless of them being at inconvenient locations. Kitchens only require 2 1500va circuits. We've seen them circuit refrigerator, and dishwasher, and microwave on one 15A circuit and second circuit kitchen counters, disposal, and range hood. It always a struggle finding the balance of what they want vs what they need or giving them the bare min code compliant and cheapest design. Usually if no clear input is given, I just default to what I would prefer if it was my building or living space.
 
tortuga said:
Building departments don't require engineered plans to pass plan review for residential, so in the eyes of the laws of 'errors and omissions ' and professional liability, legally the master electrician is the one whom 'made the plans' for most any residential project.
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For multi family projects its 90% residential metered, 10% commercial metered (house panel/ building owner for remaining common space and lighting). In Oregon would it not require an engineer for the commercial space and or service sizing and design?
 
jimport said:
This set has appliances that are not there, no power listed for appliances that are.
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This is just one condo? And you're working for a remodeler or homeowner?

Even with an engineer and architect involved, I would expect wall dimensions to not match from print to actual, appliances not spec'd properly, and quite possibly the cabinets might not match from the print to the final drawings.

A lot of time is the drawings are made first so they can get a rough idea of a budget. Then they start working out the details.
 
WA_Sparky said:
For multi family projects its 90% residential metered, 10% commercial metered (house panel/ building owner for remaining common space and lighting). In Oregon would it not require an engineer for the commercial space and or service sizing and design?
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Technically no, not by law, although many architects and electrical contractors choose to use EE's, the state chose to make the supervising electrician test a very difficult test that pretty much allows a supervising electrician to " design, plan and lay out electrical installations for customers of the electrical contractor without obtaining any other license, permit or certificate"
https://oregon.public.law/statutes/ors_479.860
Notice it does not include consulting and inspections, so an arc flash survey needs to be an EE etc.
I think that's why they call it a 'supervising' electrician instead of 'master'
Also there is the insurance issue, a supervising electrician thats effectively practicing engineering doing design build needs a separate policy for the design side. Most policies dont cover 'errors and omissions', so businesses use an EE for liability reasons.
 
AC\DC said:
if it’s residential we almost never have electrical plans.
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We'll I'm moving to Oregon, lol. Here they want stamped architectural drawings for single family. I was told I needed to submit a drawing for a one room basement rewire.

I tried to explain to them that it was cost prohibitive and limits the development of truly small businesses in the neighborhood, allowing for only the big companies that can afford to hire an architect to compete in the market, but they were indifferent to my position. So, I started doing my own floorplans.

I absolutely agree that it's necessary for structural work and larger projects... and you should never go to a job without some kind of plan, but to require even the small jobs to have stamped, sealed drawings is ridiculous IMO.

I think I was just born in the wrong state, lol.
 
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I kinda wish we were required, or owner had submitted lighting layout with specked light fixture. This way it’s a even playing Feild for bidding. Everything thing has an advantage and associated disadvantage
 
AC\DC said:
I kinda wish we were required, or owner had submitted lighting layout with specked light fixture. This way it’s a even playing Feild for bidding. Everything thing has an advantage and associated disadvantage
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I disagree that requiring stamped, sealed drawings for EVERY project creates an "even playing field."
It limits the development of truly small business in my opinion.

It creates a cost prohibitive gateway that is antithetical to reality. It basically says if you want to start a business, you need to save up thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars in capital, have numerous business connections and great networking skills, and then begin... as opposed to starting small and then growing.

No Mom n' Pop Shop that I've ever heard of started with thousands of dollars in capital... and I respect that origin story more than I do the one that started with thousands of dollars in capital.

Both routes exist and need to exist. If you completely get rid of the local guy, you end up with outdated systems city wide because no one can afford to hire the big companies.

I guess my perspective is different because I came up with local EC's that almost NEVER had an architect. Working for and learning from the guy down the street named Howard, whose son is also named Howard, and runs his business out of his home and an astro van.

That's my origin story. Now-a-days I actually own a code book and am striving for "the next level," but I respect that beginning more than I do the other one.

Now once you get to the level of bidding larger projects, yes, I agree with what you're saying.
 
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Jerramundi said:
I disagree that requiring stamped, sealed drawings for EVERY project creates an "even playing field."
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I here you, but I also here AC/DC, one of my first commercial 'bids' on my own (over 20 years ago) was a remodel on a mom and pop grocery store, the service seemed maxed out and they wanted to add a commercial deli kitchen. I bid on replacing the service ( a 3 phase so not cheap) another local EC much more experienced and larger did a load calc and figured on keeping the same service.
The owner of the business was nice enough to ask why my bid was more then doubble the other guys.
I made a few calls out the the phone book (remember those?) and found a one man EE whom offered to do the basic loadcalc and create a bid specification, the owner went with it, and I believe it cost $500, then both EC's bid on the same job.
 
I see lousy plans every day. In some cases, I suspect that the person who sealed the plans never even looked at the plans "they" sealed. I think it's happening more and more.
 
I was a master at sending RFI's. Engineers love that stuff! I did a Whole Foods supermarket in Oklahoma City and the engineer met with us at a pre-con meeting and said that "ABSOLUTELY NOTHING" was to be changed on his drawings. I had to send an RFI about a piece of 240v kitchen equipment shown as circuits 42,44. I asked him where I could find a breaker tie that could go from one panel section to another. :)
 
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