Quality of work

[electricmanscott]

It seems that in these bad economic times Quality of work has flown out the window. In building my small Business I have always strived for Quality workmanship. Useing the best materials on my jobs.
Trying to provide good workmanship on every job.
This has worked well for me over the years.
Seems that in todays market it is all about Cheap!
Of coarse to some degree price has always been a big factor in being awarded the Bid.
To me we are dealing with the safety of human life.
I feel that Electricians should consider this more & Price of doing the job safely. Not the Cheapest way to Get by the Inspector.

I am looking foward to seeing your comments.

My comment is this, get over it. It isn't just our trade it's just the way things are in general. Cheap is where it's at.

There are guys here that will gripe about customers trying to get them to work for cheap and turn around and gripe about what their suppliers are charging them. Everybody wants to pay as little as possible for whatever it is they are paying for. It's just the way people are.

Do the best you can, for a price you can live with.

 

[SEO]

.

Everybody wants to pay as little as possible for whatever it is they are paying for. It's just the way people are.


.

So true but I think that it has always been that way.

 

[electricmanscott]

So true but I think that it has always been that way.

No doubt. Just human nature.

People always ask me to "sharpen my pencil"

I usually tell them the price I came up with is based on what I feel it will take to get the job done in terms of my time and the required material. If I could take a hundred bucks off then the price would have been a hundred bucks less to begin with.

If they don't get it I might tell them I can lower the price by reducing the scope of the job. Most times that shuts them up.

 

[Mule]

One of the best things about me being a independent contractor, is doing things the way I want.

For example, here's what I like.
I took my van the other day to get new brakes on it, and noticed a cartoon behind the counter. It said "This aint Wendy's, you do it my way". I thought here's a man that know's what he's doing, or course I've known him for years and years......When I picked up the van, he said, "we put life time warranty ceramic pads all the way around your van, I think you'll like them", Here's your old pads. I paid him $335 and sure enough the brakes where very very smooth, and I think that I got a good value, and I will go back, again and again to him.

So maybe I could have went somewhere got them done CHEAP, but that's not what I wanted, and If I wanted it done CHEAP, I assure you, he would not do it, and I would had to go else where.

So I say, Let the CHEAP customers, buy CHEAP products and services, and I will strive to satisfy the customer that wants quality. And because of that, we don't do much construction, because of the competive nature.

If you just work for the money, that's all you'll get. If you work for the satisfaction, you'll get both.

 

[PetrosA]

Hmmmm. Nah, I better not. It'll just turn into another rant

 

[Mule]

Hmmmm. Nah, I better not. It'll just turn into another rant

Chicken....

 

[iwire]

Hmmmm. Nah, I better not. It'll just turn into another rant

Thats all this thread is anyway is a rant.

There is not answer to be had at all.

Everyone is looking for the elusive 'good old days' that never really existed.

 

[hillbilly1]

Everyone is looking for the elusive 'good old days' that never really existed.

Hey, iwire, I want some of what your smoking!

 

[PetrosA]

Chicken....

Thats all this thread is anyway is a rant.

There is not answer to be had at all.

Everyone is looking for the elusive 'good old days' that never really existed.

Ok guys, ya got me

I agree that we remember what used to be a better than what it is now, but that having been said... I think our (Americans) mentality as a group of consumers has moved toward the Supersize model in many more ways than just McDonalds and that in order to increase the volume sold to us and keep price attractive, producers have cut quality in ways they never did before.

Take the infamous "fart fan" as an example. All the servicing I've done over the years, I've never seen anything as cheap as the $15 code-fulfilling fart fan sold nowadays. I recently had a job for a local housing authority that wanted fans replaced. They had NuTone dual squirrel cage hard ducted fans from the late 1960s that we replaced with the $15 junk ones because they couldn't afford $90 for replacement motor assemblies. The NuTones had oiling tubes which had never been touched. If they had and if the fans had been cleaned regularly, they would still be in service for many years. Another example would be the crappy plastic emergency packs that fulfill the code minimum. Take them apart once or twice and the housing might break beyond repair.

The key here is price. In spite of what we tell ourselves about how well off we are here in the US, I really don't think most of us can afford good quality products like we used to because the volume needed is too great for our supersized taste. If you build a house with 7 baths versus 3, you have to split the costs on hardware and get cheap. You brick it or stone it on one side instead of all four, and you get cheaper roof and you get "builder grade" fittings as standard.

The quality stuff is still out there. To draw a correlation, look at PCs. In the 80s, a computer and monitor cost about $2,500 or more. Today, you can get a PC for a couple hundred bucks but to get a good one with a good monitor still costs about $2,500. Do the cheap ones do the job most of us need them to do? Sure. But for the more demanding user they don't cut it. What's changed is the availability of cheap grade stuff, not only with computers.

Ok, time to end the rant

 

[iwire]

But Pete, shouldn't a customer in America be able to decide how to spend their own money? :smile:

 

[Teaspoon]

Ok guys, ya got me

I agree that we remember what used to be a better than what it is now, but that having been said... I think our (Americans) mentality as a group of consumers has moved toward the Supersize model in many more ways than just McDonalds and that in order to increase the volume sold to us and keep price attractive, producers have cut quality in ways they never did before.

Take the infamous "fart fan" as an example. All the servicing I've done over the years, I've never seen anything as cheap as the $15 code-fulfilling fart fan sold nowadays. I recently had a job for a local housing authority that wanted fans replaced. They had NuTone dual squirrel cage hard ducted fans from the late 1960s that we replaced with the $15 junk ones because they couldn't afford $90 for replacement motor assemblies. The NuTones had oiling tubes which had never been touched. If they had and if the fans had been cleaned regularly, they would still be in service for many years. Another example would be the crappy plastic emergency packs that fulfill the code minimum. Take them apart once or twice and the housing might break beyond repair.

The key here is price. In spite of what we tell ourselves about how well off we are here in the US, I really don't think most of us can afford good quality products like we used to because the volume needed is too great for our supersized taste. If you build a house with 7 baths versus 3, you have to split the costs on hardware and get cheap. You brick it or stone it on one side instead of all four, and you get cheaper roof and you get "builder grade" fittings as standard.

The quality stuff is still out there. To draw a correlation, look at PCs. In the 80s, a computer and monitor cost about $2,500 or more. Today, you can get a PC for a couple hundred bucks but to get a good one with a good monitor still costs about $2,500. Do the cheap ones do the job most of us need them to do? Sure. But for the more demanding user they don't cut it. What's changed is the availability of cheap grade stuff, not only with computers.

Ok, time to end the rant

I agree with you on this. This is a very good comparison.
There have been some very good thoughts brought out in this thread.
It has been a pleasure to read the different opinions.
One last thought Cheaper is not always Better.
Sometimes the customer does not know what is really needed.
The electrical in the home isn't as noticeable to the home owner as for
example an expensive set of cabinets in the kitchen.
But what they really don't understand is that the Electrical wiring is one of the most important things in the home.

 

[electricmanscott]

But what they really don't understand is that the Electrical wiring is one of the most important things in the home.

Spoken like a true electrician. :grin:

 

[khixxx]

But Pete, shouldn't a customer in America be able to decide how to spend their own money? :smile:

I see someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed today Don't make me start on Pol!t*cs

 

[cowboyjwc]

80-81 Quit doing any residential work. Narrowed down to comm/indust. only.

90-91: Quit working for all but 1 GC on industrial/commercial jobs. He was the only GC (in over 30 years of doing this) who never had any paper contract between us, just a hand shake and look in each other's eyes.
Focused on penetrating the "direct to corporation" market, never lost a corporate client since (although some tried other EC's and came back after finding out that lower price = lower quality, unscheduled outages, lost time to correction notices).

2001: Remaining GC client retired. So I only work for corporate clients. No
AIA or ASCA contract--just purchase orders. No retention, and paid in 30-45 days, which is as fast as GC/progress billing/bank voucher process. Several Corporate Clients even have bank transfer arrangements to pay us directly without a check being cut.

Have targeted Generator and UPS System reps as conduits to obtain new corp. business. My project manager obtained his General Contractor's License, so now we control the ancillary subs (concrete foundations, HVAC, even walls and roofs on small "hubsite" builds for telcom and IT clients. Most of our projects are 100% electrical or at least 80% electrical. We can mark up the subs (1-20%) of the project, and not mark up (like a GC would) our portion of the work, and beat every GC that bids against us.

Present recession: Pursue Solar Installations, acting as EC and GC.

I've never looked back and regretted leaving the residential market.

BTW--Hi John Childress. Haven't had a project in your area for about 2 years--hope all is well.

Hey Lee

Long time no see. Yep, last job was that generator on Enchanted way.

Slow here, but isn't everyone?

So when was the last time you heard from Ron?

 

[iwire]

I see someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed today

No, I am fine:smile:

I was asking a real question.

Lets say you take your car in for a front end problem, the mechanic finds a bad ball joint and replaces it but says 'you need to have an alignment' as well.

Is it not your choice to say yes or no even though the mechanic is likely right?

If you have your home painted and the painter recommends $50 per gal paint is it not your choice to say "No, I want $25 per gal paint" even if it may not last as long?

Don't make me start on Pol!t*cs

If you do it will likely be removed.

 

[iwire]

But what they really don't understand is that the Electrical wiring is one of the most important things in the home.

And what most electricians do not understand is only electricians will think that way.

 

[Mule]

It seems that in these bad economic times Quality of work has flown out the window. In building my small Business I have always strived for Quality workmanship. Useing the best materials on my jobs.
Trying to provide good workmanship on every job.
This has worked well for me over the years.
Seems that in todays market it is all about Cheap!
Of coarse to some degree price has always been a big factor in being awarded the Bid.
To me we are dealing with the safety of human life.
I feel that Electricians should consider this more & Price of doing the job safely. Not the Cheapest way to Get by the Inspector.

I am looking foward to seeing your comments.

After reading your original post again, I detect that you perhaps lost a job to someone who does a more streamline (bare bones) job. And your right, some folks only care about the cost. Those type of customers dont sound like they are your type of customer. Workmanship, is a tuff term effectively define. Go after the customers that you can provide the level of "workmanship" that you desire to install. Customers come in many different breeds, Cheap, Value minded, and Quality minded. I like the Value minded, and Quality minded.

There is "x" amount of work, and "x" amount of qualified talent, even in these slow times, let the cheap contractors satisfy the Cheap customers. Your customers will find you, if your consistent in your intentions.

 

[Mule]

Ok guys, ya got me

I agree that we remember what used to be a better than what it is now, but that having been said... I think our (Americans) mentality as a group of consumers has moved toward the Supersize model in many more ways than just McDonalds and that in order to increase the volume sold to us and keep price attractive, producers have cut quality in ways they never did before.

Take the infamous "fart fan" as an example. All the servicing I've done over the years, I've never seen anything as cheap as the $15 code-fulfilling fart fan sold nowadays. I recently had a job for a local housing authority that wanted fans replaced. They had NuTone dual squirrel cage hard ducted fans from the late 1960s that we replaced with the $15 junk ones because they couldn't afford $90 for replacement motor assemblies. The NuTones had oiling tubes which had never been touched. If they had and if the fans had been cleaned regularly, they would still be in service for many years. Another example would be the crappy plastic emergency packs that fulfill the code minimum. Take them apart once or twice and the housing might break beyond repair.

The key here is price. In spite of what we tell ourselves about how well off we are here in the US, I really don't think most of us can afford good quality products like we used to because the volume needed is too great for our supersized taste. If you build a house with 7 baths versus 3, you have to split the costs on hardware and get cheap. You brick it or stone it on one side instead of all four, and you get cheaper roof and you get "builder grade" fittings as standard.

The quality stuff is still out there. To draw a correlation, look at PCs. In the 80s, a computer and monitor cost about $2,500 or more. Today, you can get a PC for a couple hundred bucks but to get a good one with a good monitor still costs about $2,500. Do the cheap ones do the job most of us need them to do? Sure. But for the more demanding user they don't cut it. What's changed is the availability of cheap grade stuff, not only with computers.

Ok, time to end the rant

I have to agree with you, People build high end homes, and dont have a clue how cheap the builder did this or that, especially if its covered up. I dont understand alum buss cheapy panelboards, $.44 duplex's, and yes those $15 fart fans, in a high end home, I just dont get it. A builder makes his money off of subs and the consumer pays the price, and the resi EC eats bolagna...............................which aint bad with some colby cheese and ice cold glass of milk to go with it...yum yum:smile:

 

[zappy]

I "was" working for a real estate agent, and he would say, just make it safe but it cant be over this amount. So I find a list of code violations, and give him a price that's over his budget. He e-mails me saying he found a GC that will do it for way less. I could have ignored all the taped up splices in his crawl space, not in a j-box. And just threw some tape on the crispy insulation on the 220v dryer circuit. And use the existing K&T in the attic full of insulation. Oh well, there's no way that GC is fixing all the violations I saw!

 

[PetrosA]

But Pete, shouldn't a customer in America be able to decide how to spend their own money? :smile:

Absolutely! There are billions of dollars spent on figuring out how we make those decisions and helping to guide them

I have to agree with you, People build high end homes, and dont have a clue how cheap the builder did this or that, especially if its covered up. I dont understand alum buss cheapy panelboards, $.44 duplex's, and yes those $15 fart fans, in a high end home, I just dont get it. A builder makes his money off of subs and the consumer pays the price, and the resi EC eats bolagna...............................which aint bad with some colby cheese and ice cold glass of milk to go with it...yum yum:smile:

The answer is that the rest of the home is so cheap it doesn't deserve anything better. I recently worked in a fifteen year old McMansion that from front to back was about 40-45 feet. At the halfway point, the floor dipped three inches. Three inches of settling in fifteen years. Ouch. But the owners only cared that there were 7 bedrooms, 8 baths and a three bay garage you could park buses in for themselves and their one infant. The 2x4 outside walls didn't matter at all...

One thing I think we had from (especially) our British, French and German settlers for quite a while was an appreciation for quality. Unfortunately I don't think it really ingrained itself in our culture enough to become a truly American trait and unless the customer knows quality, selling it is tough. Without some desire on the part of a customer, it's next to impossible to talk the average Mr. or Mrs. Jones into spending double or triple or five times as much on Lightolier or even Juno when WAC can "do" the same thing for so much less. The cheapie Sunstar recessed lights give poor people the chance to have recessed lighting - even if they'll only last a fraction of what something decent would and cause way more headaches for us during the install (and I include the McMansion owners among the poor in this case since the majority can't afford to outfit their homes decently). Hunter Original fans had to be donated for military target practice to destroy them unlike their $20 Home Depot competition nowadays.

I think there are probably dozens of reasons why things are the way they are now and probably even knowing the answers wouldn't help change more than how certain we each feel about our own convictions. In the end, the only thing that matters is how each of us lives his or her own life and what we teach our kids. Mine will learn as much about quality as I can teach them.