Quality of workers (declining)

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bernardmulherin1978

bernardmulherin1978

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augusta georgia
I have worked and came up under a generation of electrical workers who you very rarely meet any more. There 55 and up. It seems like today everyone is a electrician ,it seems to be a fashion statement or the cool thing to be, I am wondering what made things this way, there are only a hand full of electricians that I respect, and one is a friend of mine and he has a hard time finding his place in today's electrical industry, and I am 38 and just don't understand why. Can any one fill me in, cause I don't think its right to not show respect for the good ones that came before you. Maybe there is something wrong with me though

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I knew of many older then me that called themselves electricians. Some were pretty sharp with logic and controls, maybe a little shaky on code though. But in their day code wasn't enforced the way it is now either. Others were just good at making things work but didn't know much about codes.

Today it turns more into how cheap can we do this and still comply with codes at times. Otherwise anyone that is still calling themselves an electrician knows reasonable amount of code otherwise the inspectors are seeking them out and doing something about it.
 
bernardmulherin1978 said:
I have worked and came up under a generation of electrical workers who you very rarely meet any more. They are 55 and up. It seems like today everyone is a electrician ,it seems to be a fashion statement or the cool thing to be,
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The herd thins out as you get older. I have seen a lot of guys work in the trade for a few years and then decide it's time to find something else. Many end up with a bad back, knees or shoulders and it's just not that easy to do electrical work anymore.

When I was 36 years old I looked around and noticed that I was the oldest man on the crew by about 6 years and that was back in 1990 so things haven't changed that much.
 
at 43 i run into few around my age although i got into the service side of things back in 05 when local work fell out. From the few times i have been loaned out to actual jobsites they pretty much call anyone an electrician whether they have any actual understanding or not. One thing i have noticed is that general workers are at temp agencies and companies are only hiring foreman and a few helpers. And you can ask for a joirneyman and expect one but end up with a 2nd yr helper who can bend pipe... Scary
 
I think it varies widely from company to company. My experience is that the contractors I typically work with these days are much better than those I worked with 30 years ago. BUT, I am mostly concerned about doing control wiring and 30 years ago it was hard to find any contractors that had anyone on staff that could read a schematic much less wire to it. Not much of a problem these days.
 
I grew up working in my Dad's mechanical contracting biz, learned all of the trades I can do from The Dead Men. They were tough, honery, but good. The youngsters working in any of the trades are good for the most part.
 
bernardmulherin1978 said:
and I am 38 and just don't understand why. Can any one fill me in,
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ohoh. early onset of grumpy old man syndrome.
i'm 61, and saddled up at 21... um, carry the two.... so, 40 years.

if i had to put a timeline on it, the last fifteen years have marked
a significant change in the labor pool. however, i've been working
solo for 11 of them, so my first hand knowledge is limited.

however, the last three years i've been going all over the place,
certifying lighting. so, i've seen a ton of different installs, by a
very wide range of skill levels. it's not reassuring, on a number
of levels.

from simple mechanical competence, to work ethic, to ability to
understand problem solving techniques, it's pretty dismal overall.

the good thing is, if you are capable, you'll now have unlimited
work in front of you. there are more opportunities to succeed
now than at any time in the last 40 years, IMHO.

a blind dog with a note in it's mouth can look good now.
 
Quality of Workers today and in the past

Quality of Workers today and in the past

I can see this from both sides. In 1970 when I started my Apprenticeship I heard the Old Heads talking about the kids (like me) trying to fill the vacancies. Now I'm retired and I'm looking at it the same way the old guys did in 1970.

However, I also see it from a Business Owner standpoint. Do you know how hard it is to find anyone that wants to work with their hands anymore? I was spending so much time trying to place Ads, Interview, and Hire I couldn't run the business. I ended up using a head hunter to locate "qualified" people and still kept 1 out of 20.

I believe that Kwired is on the right track. Trying to have the lowest bid and still Code comply seems to be the norm. As others have said about older guys, good at what they did but weak on Code. OK, I get that. The Code was The Standard and it wasn't as open to Interpretation and dispute. This is how you did it and the Code was more of a minimum way to do it.

If you find someone that wants to do the time as an Apprentice and shows an interest, take them under your wing and encourage them to follow the code and always think of how can I make what I'm doing safe for my Customer.

When I designed Automation Machines for one employer, I used the guideline of how could someone high on Drugs find a way to hurt themselves on this machine. From there I made the machines as safe as possible to protect the workers. If you think along these line, you're going to be all right. Things will work out.
JimO
 
Here in CA it is mandatory to hire workers for doing electrical work to pass competency test regulated by the Department of Industrial Relations.
In order to work as a electrician trainee, he has to pass the test to be allowed to work for a C10 Electrical contractor.

This trainee certification is different from electrical contracting license..

Failure on the part of the electrical contractor (C10 holder) in hiring certified trainee could result in license revocation.
 
myspark said:
Here in CA it is mandatory to hire workers for doing electrical work to pass competency test regulated by the Department of Industrial Relations.
In order to work as a electrician trainee, he has to pass the test to be allowed to work for a C10 Electrical contractor.

This trainee certification is different from electrical contracting license..

Failure on the part of the electrical contractor (C10 holder) in hiring certified trainee could result in license revocation.
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Here in Florida the only person who requires a license or any formal training for that matter is the contractor. The contractor can hire 10 bums from an alley, give them 10 minutes training on how to do some repetitive task like wire a switch, set them free in a big office building project, and call them electricians. I've seen it done.
 
When they went to temp staff, things changed drastically, I remember walking on a job and the foremen saying get my tools or can you read prints and giving them to me. Not any more, and it seems that all the decent workers are not clean, whether dirty by drugs or law etc.I've been in all these categories a time or to when I was a little wild, but I always worked good. The more the owner of the company I work for tightens down for money off insurance rates, the more the quality of worker goes down the drain. I am in the south and its this way down here. I use to be in the union and its pretty much the same there.

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That would be a great idea down here to have you test with the city, to get a journeymen card of some sort, my boss has lost 10 grand off a job and I am still not finished fixing everything ,because this person said he was a electrician, there should be some repercussion from being deceitful,

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myspark said:
Here in CA it is mandatory to hire workers for doing electrical work to pass competency test regulated by the Department of Industrial Relations.
In order to work as a electrician trainee, he has to pass the test to be allowed to work for a C10 Electrical contractor.

This trainee certification is different from electrical contracting license..

Failure on the part of the electrical contractor (C10 holder) in hiring certified trainee could result in license revocation.
Click to expand...

i'm guessing 1/3 of the journeymen on crews i go out to
certify work for have a legitimate journeymans license.
 
Nobody wants to train, or offer benefits, or look at anything other than the short term now. The economy hasnt been too good the last decade for a lot of us, and I think that plays a part as well.

The #1 thing that pisses me off more than anything else is having to do something twice... there's never time to do it right the first go around, but there's always time to fix it?

and yeah, not a lot of people these days like working out in freezing weather or 110* heat index days... neither do I sometimes, but I'm pretty sure if I worked in a cubicle typing memos, making phone calls and shuffling papers I would have been a CNN story by now LOL. I don't consider that "real work".

eta: I've seen foremen whose only apparent qualifications were they were bi-lingual, and could read prints.
 
JFletcher said:
...and yeah, not a lot of people these days like working out in freezing weather or 110* heat index days... neither do I sometimes, but I'm pretty sure if I worked in a cubicle typing memos, making phone calls and shuffling papers I would have been a CNN story by now LOL. I don't consider that "real work".
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FWIW, were it not for office personnel fielding calls, setting up appointments, and drawing up plans, a lot of field workers wouldn't have anything to do. I am a PV system designer; I started in this business as an installer on rooftops in the summer heat a few years ago, but I am very happy not to have to do that any more.
 
ggunn said:
FWIW, were it not for office personnel fielding calls, setting up appointments, and drawing up plans, a lot of field workers wouldn't have anything to do. I am a PV system designer; I started in this business as an installer on rooftops in the summer heat a few years ago, but I am very happy not to have to do that any more.
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But you get a lot more respect from us because you have been out there and know what it is all about. You possibly still do get out there and get involved in some way at times.

When you design something, you likely know how things work and design accordingly, some may know how the PV system works, but know nothing about mechanical aspects of putting certain things together and then get upset when the field guys want special equipment to handle something or need to build additional structure to handle the physical size, weight, etc. of something the non experienced designer had no clue about.
 
kwired said:
But you get a lot more respect from us because you have been out there and know what it is all about. You possibly still do get out there and get involved in some way at times.

When you design something, you likely know how things work and design accordingly, some may know how the PV system works, but know nothing about mechanical aspects of putting certain things together and then get upset when the field guys want special equipment to handle something or need to build additional structure to handle the physical size, weight, etc. of something the non experienced designer had no clue about.
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Oh, I agree absolutely; the two years I spent as an installer (2X+ the age of most of my fellow installers) and a field supervisor on the projects I designed (where I had to fix my own mistakes) were very valuable contributors to my chops as a designer now.
 
JFletcher said:
Nobody wants to train, or offer benefits, or look at anything other than the short term now. The economy hasnt been too good the last decade for a lot of us, and I think that plays a part as well.
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Union electricians that start out as apprentices receive five years of training paid for by the contractors. A few larger non-union shops around here send their apprentices to similar non-union training programs. Now we can argue about the content of that training. I personally think it needs to be realigned to reflect the actual needs of the contractors. But still, training is being offered.

Union electricians receive good health care and vacation benefits. I can't speak for the non-union shops.

All this training and benefits (and higher wages) makes union electricians more expensive so the shops that don't offer training and benefits are undercutting the union shops on price and winning lots of jobs. This causes some union shops to go non-union. Solution? I don't know.
 
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JFletcher said:
... but I'm pretty sure if I worked in a cubicle typing memos, making phone calls and shuffling papers I would have been a CNN story by now LOL. I don't consider that "real work".
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I spent my first 23 years after college working in an air conditioned cubicle typing on a computer terminal. I never was overjoyed to come to work and occasionally found myself staring out the window at the workman below and wondering what it would be like to be working out there. It was not a change I could have made voluntarily, but circumstances forced a change and I ended up a first year electrical apprentice at age 46. I now wish I had started in this trade at 18. I find it very rewarding and enjoyable.
 
Hiring qualified service truck technicians is nearly impossible. That person has to:
be a great troubleshooter;
be a great puzzle solver;
be a great installer;
be polite and punctual;
be well spoken;
be a good salesman;
be clean and well groomed, not have BO or bad breath or smell like alcohol or cigarette smoke;
understand how houses are constructed;
be able to traverse an attic without falling through the ceiling;
be able to withstand the heat in the attic;
be able to crawl under a house;
be efficient;
be a self-starter;
be reliable;
be a safe driver;
and probably a dozen other things.

Where do you get these people? The only thing you can do is try and find somebody with a few of these characteristics and hopefully train him/her for the others.
 
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