readydave8
re member
- Location
- Clarkesville, Georgia
- Occupation
- electrician
I scored 11 out of 13, did I pass?
Quality of workers (declining)
- Thread starter bernardmulherin1978
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Coppersmith
Senior Member
- Location
- Tampa, FL, USA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
I scored 11 out of 13, did I pass?
Depends. I can probably train you to troubleshoot. I probably can't train you to not have BO.
junkhound
Senior Member
- Location
- Renton, WA
- Occupation
- EE, power electronics specialty
The folks I know in aerospace who meet those 2 line items pull down over 150K/year without overtime, and all folks like that I know, by the time they have seen enough to be 'great', are over 45YO.
The others items are given except for the attic and crawl space items, and salesman not needed if one can troubleshoot complex systems.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
A lot more were willing to put the effort into meeting those requirements 30+ years ago. I likely met nearly all those when I was younger, have gotten even better as some of them but lost the ability to do some others.
Heat in the attic - I just can't do anymore. You don't want to have to pull my corpse out of there either. I will still crawl under a house - if I can fit there. Some spaces I can't crawl into that I once could. BO and bad breath - might be different in the morning then they are at mid day.
Yes. It is very rare to see quality workmanship in the materials and methods in installations built today. Lots of installations have the look of being built by gardeners and convenience store clerks.
Growing up in father's electrical business, servicing installations built in the 1930's, 40' 50's, even knob and tube was obviously always installed by trade craftsmen with years of experience and an appreciation for the result of building something of long lasting value and aesthetic appearance.
In the old days there was an assumption an electrician would work for an electrical contractor and the customer was hiring an electrician. Customers did not do their own wiring because they were afraid of burning their own house down. Those days are gone and have been gone, I would say, since the 1990's. Everything is churn and burn, no fear of building fire and safety hazards as the home or business may be sold again in a few years.
In the old days if you walked into a relatively large business, electrical shop plumbing paint carpentry, were all separate trades so there was an expectation your boss was a higher level dedicated trade master. Companies have gone though multiple rounds of staff and budget cuts and half that staff level is gone. Trade craftsmen are gone and the remaining are multitrade technicians, mechanic does wiring (extension cords and wirenuts), electrician is also painter plumber mechanic general labor. The boss is no longer a trade master, he is some clueless good bullshitter who chose to not work in the trades. Black tape is a coupling to join EMT to sealtite.
I reached the point in the 1990's that it became very difficult to service other people's electrical installations because, for it to meet code, pretty much I would have to tear it all out, throw it in the dumpster, and start over with nothing. Other times I would say it was legal but they made choices in materials I could never make. I was afraid of being the last guy who touched it.
Instead of building things to last forever, I do see competitors building and repairing things in a way that they will always be fixing the same things over and over. I put the blame squarely on the customers and bosses for hiring non trade professionals. There is no fear of screwing the next guy down the line, dummies hiring dummies.
Growing up in father's electrical business, servicing installations built in the 1930's, 40' 50's, even knob and tube was obviously always installed by trade craftsmen with years of experience and an appreciation for the result of building something of long lasting value and aesthetic appearance.
In the old days there was an assumption an electrician would work for an electrical contractor and the customer was hiring an electrician. Customers did not do their own wiring because they were afraid of burning their own house down. Those days are gone and have been gone, I would say, since the 1990's. Everything is churn and burn, no fear of building fire and safety hazards as the home or business may be sold again in a few years.
In the old days if you walked into a relatively large business, electrical shop plumbing paint carpentry, were all separate trades so there was an expectation your boss was a higher level dedicated trade master. Companies have gone though multiple rounds of staff and budget cuts and half that staff level is gone. Trade craftsmen are gone and the remaining are multitrade technicians, mechanic does wiring (extension cords and wirenuts), electrician is also painter plumber mechanic general labor. The boss is no longer a trade master, he is some clueless good bullshitter who chose to not work in the trades. Black tape is a coupling to join EMT to sealtite.
I reached the point in the 1990's that it became very difficult to service other people's electrical installations because, for it to meet code, pretty much I would have to tear it all out, throw it in the dumpster, and start over with nothing. Other times I would say it was legal but they made choices in materials I could never make. I was afraid of being the last guy who touched it.
Instead of building things to last forever, I do see competitors building and repairing things in a way that they will always be fixing the same things over and over. I put the blame squarely on the customers and bosses for hiring non trade professionals. There is no fear of screwing the next guy down the line, dummies hiring dummies.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Even goods we purchase are that way anymore. Build them well enough that the majority will last through the warranty period, othewise make them as cheap as possible so you can undersell the competition.
Used to be a major household appliance would last 20-30 years. Now you are lucky to get 3 or 4 out of some of them, and if they break down after warranty the repair is usually expensive enough you just buy a new one - at least there is a new warranty again.
ggunn
PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
- Location
- Austin, TX, USA
- Occupation
- Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Our first microwave lasted for more than 20 years. The second one (we are on our third) only lasted 3-4 years.
Coppersmith
Senior Member
- Location
- Tampa, FL, USA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
I don't think we can blame the manufacturers. They are just reacting to what the market wants. I personally consult Consumer Reports before I buy anything major. But most people, I suspect, want to buy the cheapest product they can. That product won't last long because it just can't at that price point.
ggunn
PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
- Location
- Austin, TX, USA
- Occupation
- Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
The same can be said for pimps and drug dealers. Give the people what they want.
Coppersmith
Senior Member
- Location
- Tampa, FL, USA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
I suspect that you, me, most of the others here would do well scored against my list. We have demonstrated an interest in doing this stuff the right way and continuous improvement. Unfortunately, a large portion of our brethren, could care less. Not only are there the kids who are as dumb as rocks and with the same attention span, there are the guys that have been doing this forever and you would never want to put them in the same room as a customer.
I've worked with electricians that looked and smelled worse than people who lived on the streets. (In fact, I know of one that lived in a tent behind the union hall.) I'm glad we are able to give jobs to felons, alcoholics, drug addicts, and people with bad grooming habits. These people work out fine on large jobs. But usually these things are indicative of other problems that would make them ineligible for close customer contact.
Coppersmith
Senior Member
- Location
- Tampa, FL, USA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
You can find legal versions of both of those plus gambling in Nevada and it's packed with tourists, so yes.
And from country to country in my experience. Age, culture, ethics, the field in which they are engaged.........?
And, I'm sure, a host of other factors too.
A couple of examples if I may be permitted.
We, myself and a mechanical engineer, arrived on site in the far east. This was for the erection and commissioning of a paper machine. It was a Sunday and we were jet lagged but we agreed to take a walk round the mill. They had built a concrete motor plinth about 8x3x3 feet.
"What's that for?" I asked.
"The crawl generator."
"Um, we won't need that now," I said in passing
Next morning, there it was completely gone. Raised to the floor. I couldn't believe it.....
By way of contrast, I found your neighbours to the north to be the most unhelpful bunch I have ever worked with. Maybe it was just in that sector - naval dockyards.
Era and quality? I suppose many are of the mentality "you just can't get good staff these days".
There may be a ring of truth in that - at least here in UK. I put that down to two main reasons. Engineering as a profession is not held in high regard and most people don't have a clue about what it involves. "Working with tools and getting your hands dirty" is how one girl who was enrolling in a posh expensive finishing school. Fair made me spit feathers, that did.
The other reason is that, like most sciences, it is perceived as a "hard" degree. To get a not very sexy job.
ggunn
PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
- Location
- Austin, TX, USA
- Occupation
- Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
I think that there's maybe a pendulum swinging. Folks grow up under difficult circumstances, work hard to build a technology and an infrastructure to make life easier, their kids grow up under much better circumstances and decide to do easy fun stuff with their lives, and circumstances get difficult again because no one wants to do the hard stuff... rinse and repeat.
Yes, I'm sure you're right. I also think there are too many degrees that don't have an obvious career path.
"Marketing with Festival and Event Management" Masters degree is being offered and the university I attended all those decades ago.
How many Festival Managers does Edinburgh need!!
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