Question about new service

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MattS87

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Yakima, WA
A co-worker is building a house and was told by POCO that he has a 320/400A service available. I am trying to answer some questions for him about his service but I've never done a 400A. Do you guys typically use a meter main combo with (2) 200A breakers feeding separate panels? He is still in the permitting phase and doesn't know all of the load to do a calc yet but has mentioned possibly doing electric tank-less h2o heater.

As a side question, any opinions about tank-less vs tank? They are a family of 6 with 4 girls so I would imagine he will go through a ton of hot water
 
MattS87 said:
Do you guys typically use a meter main combo with (2) 200A breakers feeding separate panels?
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We usually use a 320/400a meter, which the POCO supplies free, and either two 200a main-breaker panels or two 200a main breaker/disconnecys feeding two 200a main-lug panels, depending on the panels' locations.

As a side question, any opinions about tank-less vs tank?
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That decision can make the difference between a single 200a panel and two of them. I just finished converting a 200a service to a 320/400a for that exact reason, the new panel added for the 4x40a tankless heater alone.
 
We usually use the 400A/320A meter base with dual lugs. Feed (2) 200A panels off that as Larry said.

I would try and talk them out of the electric tankless. Too much upfront with little chance of breaking even anytime soon. They do have to have parts replaced eventually and are not cheap. Add to that the extra for the power to supply it. But the most problem I encounter is unless you live in a warm climate the incoming water is too cold to heat well or fast enough.

To get the heat right you have to slow the flow down to allow it to heat well. I hear people all the time complaining about cold spurts occurring during a shower, especially if other hot water is being used at the same time.

Haven't heard the same complaints about gas tankless though.
 
LarryFine said:
We usually use a 320/400a meter, which the POCO supplies free, and either two 200a main-breaker panels or two 200a main breaker/disconnecys feeding two 200a main-lug panels, depending on the panels' locations.


That decision can make the difference between a single 200a panel and two of them. I just finished converting a 200a service to a 320/400a for that exact reason, the new panel added for the 4x40a tankless heater alone.
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I never really realized the electrical requirements on the tank-less until he had asked about it and i looked it up which makes it a good thing the 400 is available. Is the conversion for yourself? To me it seems more logical to use a tank, but then again I've never looked at it in depth
 
In Europe we use tankless but it is gas type usually as you spend a fortune on electric tankless. Electric tankless usually specific spots and used with solar systems to bring the heat up,the rest of the way.
after the switch from the tank system to the tankless our water bills went down but complaints went up due to some taking very long showers...right when others needed to get ready for work...

meant costs for hot water.. it was gas bills.. gas costs went down as only paid for hot water used not keeping water hot.
 
The last 400A service I installed I had to use a CT cabinet inside the garage, installed (2) 200A disconnects directly above and from them ran SER cable to (2) 40 circuit main lug panels in the basement. I also had to install a 1 1/4" gal conduit (no couplings or LB's) from the CT cabinet to the meter outside the garage. The POCO wired the meter. I also had to install (2) 4" conduits out of the bottom of the CT cabinet (1 was a spare) with wide sweep elbows into the trench outside the garage. POCO came in and ran the PVC and wiring to the transformer.

I would also check with your POCO to see what their requirements are.
 
Two of my daughters are like me.. military showers normally.
one of my daughters will have the shower on for an hour.. yet is on her tablet the whole time.
final daughter prefers two hour baths, complains the water takes longer to warm up when she just wants to top up the hot water...

current home uses a central hot water system of some sort... system supplies around twent6 homes.. so we do not have our own water heater.. but there are times it uses several gallons before we get any hot water..yet we pay per gallon...
 
MattS87 said:
I never really realized the electrical requirements on the tank-less until he had asked about it and i looked it up which makes it a good thing the 400 is available. Is the conversion for yourself? To me it seems more logical to use a tank, but then again I've never looked at it in depth
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The biggest thing here before you get into how long until it needs service/how much servicing may cost is how much do you need to raise the water temperature and at what flow rate? If you have one shower, you need less flow then if you have four showers even then there is still possible demand from other fixtures but the shower is going to get the most complaints if there isn't sufficient enough hot water. Here ground water temp is about 55F, that needs to be heated to around 105F or even to 115 or 120 for some to be happy and at the rate it is flowing. Takes a lot more watts then if water were already around room temp before going through the heater.

Coppersmith said:
This may be an urban legend. I take way longer showers than my two girls (now women) or my wife ever did.
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Everyone is different. My wife uses a lot more hot water for bathing/showers then I usually do. I like it warm, she likes to be cooked.:)
 
readydave8 said:
spendy how? the gas itself or the installation?

I've seen customers that are happy with their gas tankless

Some may be happy with their electric tankless, but none that I've met
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LP is not that far off from NG, don't know which is currently higher, and you must also consider LP has more potential energy in same volume than NG. LP is more expensive at initial install, especially if you need a large tank. You not only have the large tank but the cost of first fill. After that if you have it refilled say monthly, you are only buying the gas you used in the last month, not an entire tank full every month. NG may not be all that cheap at initial install either if you need to have lines run further then to the property line, or if a large property need to run across several acres of property.
 
In Jamaica I use two large tanks. Most people just use the small tanks. Small tank means I could get it in the neighborhood easily from one of seven retailers but large tank means I make call and guy brings replacement. Tank supplies two stoves and a tankless heater and lasts a little over a month. Not bad at all and usually have replacement within two days.
 
Adamjamma said:
In Jamaica I use two large tanks. Most people just use the small tanks. Small tank means I could get it in the neighborhood easily from one of seven retailers but large tank means I make call and guy brings replacement. Tank supplies two stoves and a tankless heater and lasts a little over a month. Not bad at all and usually have replacement within two days.
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When I said large tank I meant something like 200 gallon or larger. Most anything less then that is considered portable around here.
 
We only have two sizes here in Jamaica.. the one I used in Georgia for my grill, and the one that is four times as tall.. like taller and wider than my buddies welding tank but smaller than the hydrogen tanks where I used to work.
 
Adamjamma said:
We only have two sizes here in Jamaica.. the one I used in Georgia for my grill, and the one that is four times as tall.. like taller and wider than my buddies welding tank but smaller than the hydrogen tanks where I used to work.
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Probably 20 pound and 100 pound capacities. That is nothing;). I see 1000 gallon and even larger quite often on farms and small industrial applications.
 
I'm sure most of you expected my "comment" eventually. I do have such a fondness for the meter/relay jobs I retired from....well, maybe that's a lie....retirement is GREAT!!! Anyway, a 400A service used to be (or maybe still is) a Form 2K (bolt in) CL 400 meter, meaning it is not a socket base meter and is rated for 400A continuous. When higher Amp socket based meters to replace the 400A came along, they were a Form 2S CL 320 meter, which is 80% of 400. We still call it a 400A service because fees are the same (billing is "up to 200A", then the fees change for anything higher). If a commercial (non-residential) customer requires over 200A service, CT's are required. Residential can be up to 320A without CT's. There is a three phase CL 320 meter available, but most utilities still require CT's for over 200A services for three phase. The reason is the available fault current at the meter. Like most of my posts, you can file this under useless information...I won't be offended. Just explaining why you need to verify what your utility can and will supply.
 
MattS87 said:
No gas to the property so only LP is available which is kind of spendy
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Then use an electric tank. Tankless has not proven to save energy or money, and as already stated several times here, is unreliable, especially with electric versions in providing constant hot water in moderate to high volumes. If the home would locate the tank in an unfinished are such as a basement, a hybrid system can save money/energy.
 
A tankless might not be good if you have (or will have) teenage kids in the house. Teenagers who enjoy long showers often take showers until the hot water runs out, at which point their shower is over.

A tankless hot water heater means they never run out of hot water, which results in longer showers. Energy consumption often goes up with tankless in these types of households.
 
I can and have posted before, prove that tankless gas systems save energy and money when compared to gas tanked systems... which here in UK save money compared to electric.
not only that, but the savings continues in the winter as well, though at a lower amount, when used to also supply the radiators.

i actually saved in bills over two years the money I paid to British Gas to install a tankless system in replacement for the ‘backfire’ boiler I had used for the previous four years. Plus, House was kept warmer, and no more sweater... my monthly bill in winter was low enough that they actually sent someone to check the meter and such to make sure I had not bypassed it, and that it was properly working...
so, while in USA they may be still in the infancy, and costly... more so because they get mounted outside where the units rust away so often, here they work... and apex system might actually make them better if you ran it as a loop...
 
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