Question for Home Inspection

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Strahan

Strahan

Senior Member
Location
Watsontown, PA
Hey guys I have recently been asked a question that I know the answer to but am having trouble referencing a code section to support it. One of my guys in the shop here is preparing his house to sell and was concerned because he had no GFCI recepts on his kitchen counter top. The house was built along time ago and the wire they used had no EGC. I told him he could still put GFCi's in and they would work perfectly fine as we all know a GFCI doesn't need a EGC to function as designed.
Here is the issue every home inspection I have been involved with the inspector carries a recept tester that checks for proper phasing and grounding. Without an EGC the meter will indicate so and the inspector will or should note this on his report. Since this house was built years and years ago I don't believe he will be required to replace any of this pre-existing wiring it would just merely be a suggestion maybe from the potential buyers, but where can I look in code to support my answer that he is not required to bring this wiring up to code?
 
Strahan said:
Hey guys I have recently been asked a question that I know the answer to but am having trouble referencing a code section to support it. One of my guys in the shop here is preparing his house to sell and was concerned because he had no GFCI recepts on his kitchen counter top. The house was built along time ago and the wire they used had no EGC. I told him he could still put GFCi's in and they would work perfectly fine as we all know a GFCI doesn't need a EGC to function as designed.
Here is the issue every home inspection I have been involved with the inspector carries a recept tester that checks for proper phasing and grounding. Without an EGC the meter will indicate so and the inspector will or should note this on his report. Since this house was built years and years ago I don't believe he will be required to replace any of this pre-existing wiring it would just merely be a suggestion maybe from the potential buyers, but where can I look in code to support my answer that he is not required to bring this wiring up to code?
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Check out NEC 2008 406.3(D)(3)
 
If it was installed at the time of the code not requiring it is preexisting/non conforming. It was code at the time installed but not now. If the wiring is good a gfci breaker could satisfy a home inspector.
 
Strahan said:
One of my guys in the shop here is preparing his house to sell and was concerned because he had no GFCI recepts on his kitchen counter top.
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Just a note: the counter-top receptacles must be GFCI-protected, not necessarily each be a GFCI receptacle.
 
Is it possible that the house was piped in?

I see home inspectors as people that are there to gather information and to write a report. They would,, of course have to note the absence of a ground light on the tester. I see them as the xray technician at a hospital.
Next step would be that the report would need to go to an electrician or an engineer for interpretation. Like the way the xray would go to a radiologist for interpretation.
We can then make correction recommendations or clarify the items on the report for the client.
 
jrannis said:
I see home inspectors as people that are there to gather information and to write a report. They would,, of course have to note the absence of a ground light on the tester. I see them as the xray technician at a hospital.
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Well put, HIs are generalists and we are specialists. :smile:


Strahan there is nothing in the NEC about enforcement, forget 406.3(D)(3) that does not force you to replace anything it only provides requirements if your replacing receptacles.

Home inspections have little to do with the NEC, hiring an HI is like hiring a mechanic to look at a used car you want to by.

The mechanic might say the brakes have little life left in them, the Air Conditioning is weak. There is no law or code that says the seller must fix those items they just become negotiating points between the seller and the buyer.

Same with the counter receptacles, the HI may say "lack of GFCI protection on counter tops is a safety concern" That does not mean anything has to be done, only that the buyer may say to the seller 'do something about the GFCIs or reduce your selling price'. Of course the buyer can do either or they can tell the buyer to go pound sand.

Now all that said, in some areas, like mine there are certain things that must be updated when a home is sold, these rules are not in the NEC or our amendments. Here these rules are in the housing rules. Things like smoke detectors, GFCIs in bathrooms etc. must be in place to sell the house.
 
iwire said:
Well put, HIs are generalists and we are specialists. :smile:


Strahan Now all that said, in some areas, like mine there are certain things that must be updated when a home is sold, these rules are not in the NEC or our amendments. Here these rules are in the housing rules. Things like smoke detectors, GFCIs in bathrooms etc. must be in place to sell the house.
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Are there any other rules? These rules seem decent and not all that an expensive of a fix.
 
Home inspectors

Home inspectors

I would like to make a general comment about my experience with home inspection reports prior to settlement. I have had several instances in which a real estate agent has asked me to comment on home inspection reports. What I have found is that it is impossible to argue with home inspectors. If the home inspector brings up an issue, even a bogus issue, the buyer wants the problem "fixed", period.
I had a home inspector report the receptacles and covers had been painted with latex wall paint and this was a fire hazard. I replaced the receptacles and covers. You can't argue with these people. Same with ungrounded receptacles. The buyers are not interested in what the NEC has to say. All they know is the home inspector, someone they paid, found a problem and they want the owner to fix it!

Of course, this is a good source of income for industry!
 
NYS has a document that is called "Property Maintenance Code".

It is the only document in the state's codes that is retroactive.

If one is selling a home, the document kicks in. This document has minimums a dwelling has to conform to, and there is a portion that pertains to the electrical issues of a dwelling.

One of the requirements is for GFCI protection of receptacles to the current code. So, kitchen counter tops, bathrooms, etc...would require a GFCI protected receptacle for the specified locations in the NEC or the State document, which is identical to the NEC the State references.


I would not be surprised if other states have a document similar to the above mentioned document.


Smokes, CO detectors, # of receptacles per room, lighting and such is also referenced in the document.
 
iwire said:
Now all that said, in some areas, like mine there are certain things that must be updated when a home is sold, these rules are not in the NEC or our amendments. Here these rules are in the housing rules. Things like smoke detectors, GFCIs in bathrooms etc. must be in place to sell the house.
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Other than smoke detectors and co detectors I know of no other mandatory rules. Enlighten me. :cool:
 
electricmanscott said:
Other than smoke detectors and co detectors I know of no other mandatory rules. Enlighten me. :cool:
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Here are some, the first requirement effectively requires a GFCI receptacle in each bathroom unless there is an existing non-GFCI receptacle already there.

The standards apply to every owner-occupied or rented dwelling, dwelling unit, mobile dwelling unit or rooming house unit in Massachusetts which is used for living, sleeping, cooking and eating. Dwelling unit shall also mean a condominium unit. These regulations have the force of law. Local boards of health have the primary responsibility for their enforcement.
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Lighting and Electrical Facilities

Every room other than the kitchen must be equipped with a minimum of either two separate wall-type convenience outlets or one electric light fixture and one wall-type outlet. [410.250]
Each kitchen must be furnished with a minimum of one electric light fixture and two wall-type convenience outlets. [410.251]

Every room containing a toilet, bathtub or shower must be equipped with a minimum of one electric light fixture. [410.252]

Electric light fixtures with switches must be located such that every laundry, pantry, foyer, hallway, stairway, closet, storage space, cellar, porch, exterior stairway and passageway are adequately lit for safe and reasonable use by the occupants. [410.253(A)]

The owner shall provide appropriate bulbs in all required light fixtures located in common areas. [410.253(B)]

The owner of a dwelling containing more than one dwelling unit shall provide and pay for light at all times for interior passageways, hallways and stairways intended for use by the occupants. In a dwelling with three or fewer dwelling units the light fixtures used to illuminate a common hallway may be wired to the electric service of a dwelling unit on the same floor and the occupant may be responsible for paying for such service if it is part of a rental agreement. [410.254(A)(B)]

No wiring shall lie under any floor cover nor shall it extend through a doorway, window or any other opening. [410.354]
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http://www.sec.state.ma.us/cis/cissfsn/sfsnidx.htm
 
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Got to agree that HOs look down on us. If the HI writes about even bogus bad stuff it could kill the deal. We are there just to fix the problems, even if they don't exist.

HOs have told me to fix the stuff even if it wasn't needed. They just want to make sure the deal goes through. It gets even worse when you dispute the alleged defect and they want to know if you know if you know what you are talking about. They ask why would the HI write it up if it were not a problem?
 
jimport said:
Got to agree that HOs look down on us. If the HI writes about even bogus bad stuff it could kill the deal. We are there just to fix the problems, even if they don't exist.

HOs have told me to fix the stuff even if it wasn't needed. They just want to make sure the deal goes through. It gets even worse when you dispute the alleged defect and they want to know if you know if you know what you are talking about. They ask why would the HI write it up if it were not a problem?
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This is a huge issue in my area that's the reason for asking the question. People tend to go with the HI instead of the "electrician" even when you try to explain like said earlier the HI wrote it up so it must need fixed.

I have sold enough houses to know these guys are the last say around here. Also try explaining to a potential buyer who knows nothing about electrical that a "Ground" Fault Circuit Interupter does not need a ground to function properly.

I'm just trying to save this guy some money before he goes and has his house re-wired. And true tell the potential buyer to go pound sand this may be ok if you can sit on it for awhile.
 
Greg1707 said:
I would like to make a general comment about my experience with home inspection reports prior to settlement. I have had several instances in which a real estate agent has asked me to comment on home inspection reports. What I have found is that it is impossible to argue with home inspectors. If the home inspector brings up an issue, even a bogus issue, the buyer wants the problem "fixed", period.
I had a home inspector report the receptacles and covers had been painted with latex wall paint and this was a fire hazard. I replaced the receptacles and covers. You can't argue with these people. Same with ungrounded receptacles. The buyers are not interested in what the NEC has to say. All they know is the home inspector, someone they paid, found a problem and they want the owner to fix it!

Of course, this is a good source of income for industry!
Click to expand...

I have found the exact same thing in my area. Once a HI writes his report it gets chiseled in stone and nothing can change it. Of course if you are the buyer or the electrical contractor this is good.
 
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