Question for those with knowledge of the New Jersey Rehab Subcode

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Hacks

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Hey guys, I'd like to preface this by saying my question is about the NJ rehab subcode. I know many people will say "Upgrade the grounding, it's the right thing to do!" but I would like to know the actual requirements, since that is all the customer is willing to pay for (and rightly so).

I have a customer who is selling his house. The buyers want him to replace a 200A FPE disconnect on the outside of the house simply because it's an FPE, he agreed to have that done.

My concern is the way it's setup. The disconnect is fed from the meter base above it with 3 wires. Then a 4-wire SER cable runs from the disconnect into the house to a MLO panel in the basement. All that is fine.

The issue is that the only grounding is a conductor from the water pipe to the ground bar inside of that MLO panel. The outside disconnect has no GEC running to it, only the EGC inside of the SER cable.

The NJ rehab subcode allows us to install a new panel or disconnect without having to upgrade the grounding, which I do often and it always passes. The problem here is that there is no GEC at all, so this is new territory for me.

I told the customer that the inspector might give us a problem, but he doesn't want to pay for the grounding if code doesn't require it, especially since his basement is finished and running the GEC will not be easy.

Has anyone in NJ come across a situation like this or know the rehab subcode well?
 
I'm in jersey.... why did you say the service doesn't require grounding...

Ground the service with two rods and to the water pipe and be done with it...

if the owner has a problem you can refer him to any other electrician... I'm sure all would ground it.

OR...........the federal and the way it's grounded comes with the house and knock off the bucks... but that would be a realtor and lawyer thing.


(where does it say if you replace a panel you don't have to ground it...... why even go there...., imo ground it or have him get someone else.... price to what needs to be done and your rate.. don't do the job for what he's willing to pay.....you will be responsible..

lets say this guy had a pool.... would you not do certain things and not others because he don't want to pay for it??)
 
Just wanted to ad............call the inspector.get his take on it.............But I know you know what he would say about it...

good luck
 
ritelec said:
I'm in jersey.... why did you say the service doesn't require grounding...
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Because it doesn't. Are you familiar with the rehab subcode? It allows you to replace a panel or disconnect without upgrading the grounding.

Ground the service with two rods and to the water pipe and be done with it...
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It's not that easy, I explained this in detail in the opening post. Please read the post again.

(where does it say if you replace a panel you don't have to ground it...... why even go there....,
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It seems as if you are not familiar with the NJ rehab subcode. With all due respect, did you happen to read the title to this thread?
 
ritelec said:
Just wanted to ad............call the inspector.get his take on it.............But I know you know what he would say about it...

good luck
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I came here to ask this question because this is a code forum and I would like to know exactly what the code requires.
 
ritelec said:
I'm in jersey.... why did you say the service doesn't require grounding...

Ground the service with two rods and to the water pipe and be done with it...

if the owner has a problem you can refer him to any other electrician... I'm sure all would ground it.

OR...........the federal and the way it's grounded comes with the house and knock off the bucks... but that would be a realtor and lawyer thing.


(where does it say if you replace a panel you don't have to ground it...... why even go there...., imo ground it or have him get someone else.... price to what needs to be done and your rate.. don't do the job for what he's willing to pay.....you will be responsible..

lets say this guy had a pool.... would you not do certain things and not others because he don't want to pay for it??)
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ritelec said:
Just wanted to ad............call the inspector.get his take on it.............But I know you know what he would say about it...

good luck
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Sorry Hacks............didn't mean to tell you what to do... I wouldn't change the panel out without grounding the disconnect and would tell the owner that was needed to be done.

And have actually done a few.. some where of work that people just upgraded or did things without pulling permits..

From what I understand, a service always need a ground..........and would be one to the water.........so again, someone cut corners.. if it where me, I would fix it.
 
ritelec said:
Sorry Hacks............didn't mean to tell you what to do... I wouldn't change the panel out without grounding the disconnect and would tell the owner that was needed to be done.
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I believe that would be a lie. That is why I am asking here, so I could provide accurate information to my customer. I don't sell work based on lies.

so again, someone cut corners.. if it where me, I would fix it.
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I run a business, not a charity. I am not going to do it for free, this is a lot of work to "fix" and requires cutting holes in the basement ceiling. The customer isn't willing to pay for something not required by code, especially since he is selling the house.
 
when someone added the outside disconnect they where wrong.. now because the owner doesn't want to pay your looking for someone to say go ahead hacks,,,,

pretty simple.... the service neutral and grounding electrode get bonded at the first disconnect.... play with it in your mind as you will.. good luck
 
ritelec said:
when someone added the outside disconnect they where wrong.. now because the owner doesn't want to pay your looking for someone to say go ahead hacks,,,,
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Yes, exactly. I want to perform a code compliant installation and that is all the customer is willing to pay for.

pretty simple.... the service neutral and grounding electrode get bonded at the first disconnect.... play with it in your mind as you will.. good luck
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I am not playing with it, I am asking what the code says. That's all I am doing, I even made disclaimers in the opening post. Why are you giving me a hard time?
 
IMHO, it all comes down to whether the rehab code only exempts you from doing code upgrades on the parts you are working on or also exempts you from correcting work that was never legal to start with.
That will come from the exact language in the code.
If the service wires had faulty insulation or were undersized could you leave them in place since you were only replacing the panel?
 
GoldDigger said:
IMHO, it all comes down to whether the rehab code only exempts you from doing code upgrades on the parts you are working on or also exempts you from correcting work that was never legal to start with.
That will come from the exact language in the code.
If the service wires had faulty insulation or were undersized could you leave them in place since you were only replacing the panel?
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I agree with your first paragraph. As for your question, I have replaced panels in houses where the outside portion of the SE cable was showing the neutral braid since the insulation had partially worn away. The customer only wanted the panel changed (I live in a big FPE area) and the inspectors passed the jobs without wanting me to upgrade the grounding or replace the worn SE cable.
 
sounds like since there is no ground at the disconnect, which is the way it is supposed to be, then you aren't upgrading the ground your installing new. Yes it needs to be done per NEC.
 
FREEBALL said:
sounds like since there is no ground at the disconnect, which is the way it is supposed to be, then you aren't upgrading the ground your installing new. Yes it needs to be done per NEC.
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I am not talking about the NEC, this is about the rehab code, and that's not how the rehab code works.

The point of the rehab code as I understand it is to push people to replace things when normally the replacement would require too much other work making it too expensive for them to do.

For example, in this situation I would have about $500 worth of work in order to bring the grounding up to today's code. Then the homeowner would also have to pay for drywall repair and painting. So, many people would say "Screw it, I'm not going to replace that rusty old panel if I have to have all that other work done too." and end up leaving something that might be dangerous.
 
FREEBALL said:
sounds like since there is no ground at the disconnect, which is the way it is supposed to be, then you aren't upgrading the ground your installing new. Yes it needs to be done per NEC.
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That is exactly Hacks point. This may e outside the NEC as the NJ Rehab code allows things that the NEC would not. I think he is looking for the verbiage or interpretation of it.

Personally I wouldn't do the job without making sure the owner understood what he was paying for. If I felt it was dangerous then I would not do the job regardless of the rehab code. It can become an issue if someone gets hurt
 
I'm not taunting. Replace a panel and just leave the water ground ( do you at least check they haven't rusted away. Do you even add a jumper) and do not add a rod or two. Leave weathered seu that the rain pours in.

Trying to get out of grounding a service properly. This is my competition lol


What's your lic number?
 
Well I'll preface my comments by saying I don't know anything about the NJ Rehab, but it sounds like your customer had a home inspection and the home inspector wrote up the FPE disco. I am assuming the "inspector who might not like it" is the EI with the building dept. Around here the POCO will allow you to do certain things without an electrical permit as long as you are not upgrading. They will in our case unlock a locked meter or even cut and reconnect the same day sometimes. So what I am saying is if you can pull the meter and change the disco without an electrical permit the home inspector is gone and doesn't care or know about the ground (unless he specifically wrote it up), and you can do the job the way you planned. If you DO need an electrical permit because it involves the meter, etc. and you said you have a concern about the grounding and want to be HONEST with your customer I would tell him I can't give you a price until I talk to the inspector. Let me ask you this. If the NJ code says don't worry about it and the EI comes by and says "where's the ground?" are you going to argue with him?
 
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