- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Lets keep it peaceful guys.
Question for those with knowledge of the New Jersey Rehab Subcode
- Thread starter Hacks
- Start date
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I came to a code forum in order to ask a question about the code. It's a shame that I have to have my livelihood attacked because I want to follow code and give my customer the installation that he wants.
That's par for the course in this thread :lol:
Your scenario is pretty accurate, that's the way it went down. The only thing is that I have to pull a permit on this, the buyer is going to want one and I always pull a permit for service work. I'm not worried about the PoCo.
What the inspector wants is meaningless. We have a uniform construction code in NJ and the municipalities have to go by the adopted code. If the rehab code allows this to be performed, then I can do it.
If the smart people who know the rehab subcode say that what I proposed is compliant (and I do the installation), I will most certainly inform the customer that the installation was correct and the inspector is out of line. I will leave it up to the customer to decide if he wants to pay for the extra work or take it to the state. This seems like the type of customer who doesn't want to pay for something just because it makes an inspector feel warm and fuzzy, so I assume he'll choose the latter.
Yes. Sorry Dennis. Sorry Hacks.
Hacks call the inspector. I know several from several towns and it's all part of their being recertified.
Call that town inspector. But again. Think about what you're asking him. Can I change a panel and leave the current service ungrounded/bonded. And as mentioned be honest with the home owner.
Or let the buyer keep the federal pacific. And knock a few grand off the home price.
Been there too.
All the best with it hacks.
Was thinking too. I'll go look at it and like good cop bad cop. I can give him a number twice yours. You do the right job at your price and you look like the good guy :- )
gadfly56
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
The key element is, was grounding you're discussing required at the time the disconnect was installed. Very important. If it was legal as installed, it's legal now. If it wasn't then, you'll have to correct it. NJ didn't have a statewide code until around 1977. If the work was done prior to that date, the best you can go on is look to the NEC edition available at the time as a guide or see if an old-timer remembers which code (BOCA, most likely) was adopted in the town, if any.
gadfly56
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
Why do you still, at this late date, think he's changing a panel? He's changing the disconnect. Reading is fundamental.
Are you sure of that? I'm not saying that you are wrong, just trying to work it out in my head.
One way that we often use the rehab subcode is to replace a panel in the same position when a water pipe is within it's working space (I'm sure you see that all the time, it's so common).
Now if that water pipe was installed at a time when it was against code to do so (and for some reason it passed, or they didn't pull a permit) then we would no longer be able to put the new panel there?
That's just an example.
I didn't know that it matter if something was installed to code or not, just that it gets upgraded to something safer.
I don't want to talk to the inspector, I don't want to play games with the customer, I don't want to know what you would do. I just want to know what code requires.
gadfly56
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
It can get very tricky. Let's say, per your example, that a water pipe is installed at some date after a code-compliant panel install and it intrudes on the working space. If the construction official is top-drawer, he might look into the files and check if a plumbing permit was ever issued for the work. If no, he issues the homeowner a violation (yes, even if he bought the house with the pipe already there) and looks to have it corrected so your panel replacement is not affected. Even if there was a permit issued, there may be a violation in the homeowner's future because it wasn't ever allowed, AFAIK, to run a pipe in the working space, but I could be wrong on that. Most likely, if you document the pipe as an existing condition, the building department will let it slide, as long as you aren't creating a new hazardous/non-compliant condition.
I see. So if that is correct, that it needs to be code compliant when the installation was performed, then the proposed installation in the OP would not pass. I don't know of any time that it was compliant to run the GEC to a subpanel (even if it is the "main panel" of the house).
The other question is that of N-G bond. I haven't opened that MLO panel up, but I bet if I do, all of the grounds will be on the neutral bar. Now do I have to separate those too?
hmy: This customer isn't going to be happy :lol:
gadfly56
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
I see. So if that is correct, that it needs to be code compliant when the installation was performed, then the proposed installation in the OP would not pass. I don't know of any time that it was compliant to run the GEC to a subpanel (even if it is the "main panel" of the house).
The other question is that of N-G bond. I haven't opened that MLO panel up, but I bet if I do, all of the grounds will be on the neutral bar. Now do I have to separate those too?
For grins and giggles, look here for the rehab code. Your work falls under "Renovation".
If you have a 4-wire SER running from the disconnect into the panel, where does the EGC terminate in the disconnect and is it bonded/jumpered to something else? What about at the main panel? I admit, grounding/bonding gives me a headache so use small words.
I didn't open either, I assume that both the EGC and neutral in the SER cable go to the neutral terminals in the disconnect. As for the panel, the neutrals and grounds may or may not be separated.
gadfly56
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
Well, not looking isn't going to help you write a smarter quote. Open up everything you can and see what's what. My parent's house (in NJ) was built in 1961 and all the receptacles are ungrounded. And it's an FPE panel. Can't wait until we have to sell that puppy.
I didn't need to open the panels for the disconnect estimate, it was rusted shut and I didn't feel like breaking anything. It was 18 degrees out too, I just wanted to get inside
If the customer wants an estimate for upgrading the grounding, I'll give him one and look at what needs to be done then.
All old houses in NJ use the metal sheath on old BX as the EGC, it's just the way it's done lol :lol:
Why not. Maybe it's covered under the rehab code. :- )
I'm surprised you picked up on that...
I mean, you didn't follow the part where it specified people with knowledge of the rehab subcode (which you clearly don't have). You also didn't understand the very first sentence of the thread in which it was explained that this question is about code and not what you would do. And even after it was explained to you 8 more times you still couldn't understand it. But you picked up on the attitude quite well, I'm impressed :thumbsup:
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