question on blood donation area

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ryan_618 said:
I don't recall stating that the breaking of human skin in and of itself creates a patient care area (I may have, but I don't remember it).
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Been awhile back. Things change and I agree now this would not be a PCA without the presence of electrically charged examing equipment.
 
and what level of medical personnel will be on staff.[/SIZE][/FONT]
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What level is required before you would call it a PCA and why? I see nothing in 517 that requires a doctor present to make an area a PCA. Anytime blood is collected in my area it is at least a nurse practitioner.

I am at a loss to understand why if 'psychiatric care' = health care facility, why the removal of bodily fluids would not be?

The notion that because blood can be collected anywhere has anything to do with a purpose built building is IMO ridiculous.

Advanced life support is routinely administered anywhere an ambulance goes that does not have anything what so every to do with the wiring methods used in an emergency room.

We will have to remain in disagreement, it is after all the AHJs responsibility to make these determinations.
 
iwire said:
I am at a loss to understand why if 'psychiatric care' = health care facility, why the removal of bodily fluids would not be?
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Because ?psychiatric care? is all about the state of health of the person walking in the door, and ?blood donation? is not.

I see an analogy in the security requirements associated with a small satellite office for a bank, as compared to the security requirements associated with a Christmas time ?bell ringer? asking for donations to be placed into the pot. The financial stability and physical security of the person dropping coins into the pot is not at issue. But the financial stability and physical security of a person making a deposit and making investment choices is at issue.
iwire said:
Anytime blood is collected in my area it is at least a nurse practitioner.
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Then such facilities are designed to provide more services than merely to draw blood, and they should be classified as PCA?s. You have a person who is trained and licensed to do more things than merely call 911, when a blood donor has a problem, and you are going to provide more equipment for that person to employ.

Keep in mind that the OP was speaking about a place in which nothing other than blood donation takes place. That activity does not require a nurse. I?m invoking ?Charlie?s Rule? on this one; IMO the NEC does not require such a place to be treated as a PCA. If anyone wants to treat it as a PCA, they are going beyond the NEC, and they are more than welcome to do so.
iwire said:
We will have to remain in disagreement. . . .
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Seems so. Not the first time; won?t be the last.
 
charlie b said:
Keep in mind that the OP was speaking about a place in which nothing other than blood donation takes place. That activity does not require a nurse.
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No? :confused:

You mean I can draw your blood for collection? :confused:
 
charlie b said:

Only if you take the training, and receive the license, to be a phlebotomist.
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Which would make me a trained professional in the health care industry

I will leave it here, we just see it differently which is fine. :smile:
 
iwire said:
Which would make me a trained professional in the health care industry.
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I agree with this. But it would not require you to have any special considerations (i.e., 517) given to your new place of work.
iwire said:
I will leave it here, we just see it differently which is fine.
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I agree with that as well.
 
charlie b said:
I believe this question has been debated, at length, on this forum before. My view continues to be that drawing blood is neither an "examination" nor a "treatment." You do not ascertain the physical condition of the donors by an inspection of the fluid drawn from their bodies, so this is not an "examination." You do not prescribe any medications on the basis of any lab results of the donated blood, so there is no "treatment" being administered.
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I respectfully disagree. Before you give blood, they ask you a ton of questions about your travels, sexual history, and other very personal information. That most certainly falls under an "examination" , and they are "inspecting" the blood before they draw it by pre-qualifying you. They are providing a "treatment", because they tell you if your blood tests HIV positive, they will notify you and the health department. This "treatment" is based upon the lab results of the donated blood.
 
iwire said:
... it is after all the AHJs responsibility to make these determinations.
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Hmm...

517.2:
Patient Care Area. Any portion of a health care facility wherein patients are intended to be examined or treated. Areas of a health care facility in which patient care is administered are classified as general care areas or critical care areas. The governing body of the facility designates these areas in accordance with the type of patient care anticipated and with the following definitions of the area classification.
General care...
Critical care...
Wet procedure location...
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What if the drawer of blood determines that there are no general care, critical care or wet procedure locations? Does that make it the blood drawer's authority to deem it not a patient care area?
 
ryan_618 said:
I don't recall stating that the breaking of human skin in and of itself creates a patient care area (I may have, but I don't remember it).

I personally would not call the area a patient care area. There is no increased hazard concerning the use of electricity in this situation. If the human skin is punctured and there is electrical equipment in the vicinity (including electromedical devices) then I would take issue. As Charlie stated, however, blood drives occur all over the place. We have them every year in my office, and it isn't wired in accordance with 517.
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The reason I believe you are both only 1/2 correct (and conversely 1/2 wrong) is the following:

Patient Care Area. Any portion of a health care facility wherein patients are intended to be examined or treated. Areas of a health care facility in which patient care is administered are classified as general care areas or critical care areas. The governing body of the facility designates these areas in accordance with the type of patient care anticipated and with the following definitions of the area classification.
General care...
Critical care...
Wet procedure location...
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blood drives in your church, office, etc are not in a Health Care Facility...but if the blood is being drawn in a doctors office/hospital/etc which is a health care facility, then I would consider it Patient Care...and wire it accordingly. If it's not in a health care facility, then I believe all bets are off...
 
ryan_618 said:
Hmm...

517.2:

What if the drawer of blood determines that there are no general care, critical care or wet procedure locations? Does that make it the blood drawer's authority to deem it not a patient care area?
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I am not following you. :-?
 
ryan_618 said:
Refer to the bold text in my quote of the definition of patient care area.
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Well yeah. :smile: I am confused by your text after the quote.

Not trying to be ..., I just am not understanding what the person drawing the blood has to do with it.

Are you saying that if you walked into what was obviously a PCA, lets say a typical e-room and the Hospitals owners said it was not that you would not press the issue?
 
iwire said:
Well yeah. :smile: I am confused by your text after the quote.

Not trying to be ..., I just am not understanding what the person drawing the blood has to do with it.

Are you saying that if you walked into what was obviously a PCA, lets say a typical e-room and the Hospitals owners said it was not that you would not press the issue?
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I would certainly question it, but I am not certain that I have the legal authority to overide it. What do you think?
 
:grin:
ryan_618 said:
I would certainly question it, but I am not certain that I have the legal authority to overide it. What do you think?
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I think this is Friday night :cool: and this is pretty deep, I should probably hold off till later before I say something really stupid. :grin:

I think that once the AHJ determines an area is a PCA it is then the responsibility of the facility to indicate what type of PCA it is. Once the AHJ determines an area is a PCA the facility must indicate General, Critical, or Wet, they do not get the option of 'None'.
 
iwire said:
I think emahler has really nailed it actually.
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Am I to understand that you have come to agree with my point of view? Just in case, let?s be clear. Start with emahler?s post:
emahler said:
blood drives in your church, office, etc are not in a Health Care Facility...but if the blood is being drawn in a doctors office/hospital/etc which is a health care facility, then I would consider it Patient Care...and wire it accordingly. If it's not in a health care facility, then I believe all bets are off...
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Here is what I see in that summary: If you are in a hospital, then you are in the realm of PCAs anyway. If you are in the shopping mall, and are therefore not surrounded by medical folks and stuff, then having needles handy does not create a PCA.
 
charlie b said:
If you are in a hospital, then you are in the realm of PCAs anyway. If you are in the shopping mall, and are therefore not surrounded by medical folks and stuff, then having needles handy does not create a PCA.[/SIZE][/FONT]
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That summary....(I know Charlie that is a good summary on this post) But I am now confused and that does not make sense with the intent, now I am confused with the intent.......Help...
 
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