Questioning inspector/boss

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rookie4now

Senior Member
Hi,
My boss tends to "bend" to the requests of the inspector(s) more easily than I wood. He has good reputation with inspectors and maybe he figures that in the long run it is better to pick your battles. I don't necessarily disagree with this, but perhaps I draw the line a little differently than he would.

On a swrvice (which I did) he was present for the inspection and the install failed for three reasons.

1) The grounded service donductor had a splice.
2) The ground rods were attached to the cold water pipe, but the conductor did not continue to the panel. The GEC was a seperate conductor which also attached to the water pipe 3' away (within 5' of the point of entry of the building).
3) There was splicing tape over one service conductor that was nicked during installation.

My comments to my boss were:
1) 230.46 specifically allows for splicing of service conductors. It does not specify grounded or undgounded.
2) 250.52(D)2 "exception" allows me to attach to the water pipe and does not require that the conductor continue to the service panel.
3) I don't have a code section on this one, but I don't know why a nick in a service conductor wouldn't be allowed to be protected with a wrap of rubber tape followed by a covering of electrical tape.

I guess what I am looking for is this. Do you agree that the service is OK? If not, where are the problems. And second, if you agree it's OK, any suggestions for dilpomatically explaining that I'd like to convince the inspector that the install is OK rather than go repull 40' of 2/0 wire for for no good reason. (see, profit sharing does work :)

Thanks for your input
 
I would start by asking the inspector for the specific code sections that you violated. When you ask him say something such as "Excuse me but I would like to know the code reference that I violated so that I can better educate myself."

If you have a civil discussion it will be much more productive and you will have a better chance of getting the inspector to see his error.

Chris
 
When it comes to re-pulling a 40' run of 2/0 That would be something I would argue the point ( to much work to redo ) is this a combo inspector and not an electrical only inspector ?
 
I thinks it's great that you are challenging the inspector. I fiind it amazing how so many electrician simply collapse and buckle to an inspectors' whim. In some cases, it's about money ("Cheaper to fix it than to fight it" attitude).

Most inspectors I deal with are normal, reasonable people. If they ask for a change, and I truly don't believe they are correct, I simply ask, "Wow, I didn't know that. Can you get me a Code reference so I can look it up and learn something?" Not snide, facetious or sarcastic. And a normal, calm adult conversation will usually result in a positive outcome for both sides.

But there are a few bad apples out there*, and some have a Messiah complex. I know of one near me whose attitude is "There's St. Peter, then there's God, then there's me". Those are the ones you need to challenge when you know you are right.**


Footnotes:
* no reference or inferrence to any inspectors on this forum, specifically Raider1.
** Failing that, take a bender handle to their knees.
 
I agree that the service is compliant.

# 1 You're NEC article and section is correct, splices are allowed.

# 2 Show the inspector the picture below.

1113918256_2.jpg



# 3 Ask the inspector if a gutter type service (as shown below) has taped split bolts inside of the gutter, would it be red tagged.

1100115312_2.jpg



Roger
 
raider1 said:
I would start by asking the inspector for the specific code sections that you violated. When you ask him say something such as "Excuse me but I would like to know the code reference that I violated so that I can better educate myself."

If you have a civil discussion it will be much more productive and you will have a better chance of getting the inspector to see his error.

Chris
Click to expand...

That's a great point. On thing that correctional officers are taught in dealing with inmates is that "Approach determines response". It works great in the real world as well.
 
roger said:
....# 2 Show the inspector the picture below.....
Click to expand...

Technically, what Mike Holt says (no disrespect to him, or Roger), has no bearing. It's what the NEC and the local revisions & adoptions say. Mike's interpretation of the Code has no more authority than yours or mine.
 
If your boss has a good reputation with the inspectors he might not be to happy with you arguing with them on one of his jobs.

I know from experiance that your reputation can save you in alot of diffrent situations. If the inspectors know your work, and that you will change or install to thier preferred specifications. They are more willing to let you slide when you are not quite ready for them to show on a job, or not require a re-inspection. And tend to be more friendly in general.

I would ask him to show you the relevant codes as further education for you. Ask him in a "Gee I alwyas thought 250.52 meant..." kind of way. If nothing else you will learn how this particular inspector views the code.

It will alot of times boil down to them being the AHJ and thats how they want it. There is alwyas someone higher to take it too, but that can be very counterproductive.

My first journeyman alwyas said "Argueing with an inspector is like rolling in the mud with a pig. The pig likes it."
 
480sparky said:
Technically, what Mike Holt says (no disrespect to him, or Roger), has no bearing. It's what the NEC and the local revisions & adoptions say. Mike's interpretation of the Code has no more authority than yours or mine.
Click to expand...
But can't you win with a preponderance of the opinions in your favor? Failing that, you could always try the ** option.
 
907Plummer said:
.....It will alot of times boil down to them being the AHJ and thats how they want it. There is alwyas someone higher to take it too, but that can be very counterproductive.......
Click to expand...

The problem is that sometimes, the inspector just wants it that way, and has no Code reference to back him/her up.

If you know you are right, then you need to decide whether it's worth the fight.

Suppose, for instance, you wire an entire house without a single 3-way. The inspector comes in, and says 'You need 3-ways in the hallway, on the stairs, and the living room has two entrances, so put some there.'

My favorite inspectors 'request' (he calls it a requirement) was he wanted me to prewire houses so a back-up generator could be installed to run certain circuits (fridge, sump, etc.) with minimal rewiring.

I've also had inspectors 'require' a pullchain fixture, mounted within 3 feet in line with the center of the panel, on a dedicated 15a circuit. One inspector 'required' me to install a 12-3 from the panel both up to the attic by the scuttle hole and down next to the furnace ("Future use" was his reasoning). Another 'required' a dedicated 20a circuit (in addition to the 2 kitchen SABCs) for a countertop microwave. Another 'requires' at least two keyless fixtures on a switch in the attic. The list goes on.....
 
I would talk to your boss after the inspector leaves or in private,let him know what you just stated.Its him getting the tag not you,arguing could result in loss of your job.For whatever reasons let your boss do the fighting or backing down.He might find it simply cheaper to agree.
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
I would talk to your boss after the inspector leaves or in private,let him know what you just stated.Its him getting the tag not you,arguing could result in loss of your job.For whatever reasons let your boss do the fighting or backing down.He might find it simply cheaper to agree.
Click to expand...

Definitely, on all counts. And unless your boss is a jerk, the two of you should be able to look at the code come to an understanding together of what's -really- required. You should also separate the concept of correctness from "passing inspection", unfortunately one doesn't necessarily mean the other.

As anyone used the tack of telling the inspector "Since you want that, I'll do it, but we both know that the code doesn't require it." ?
 
Thanks for all the replies so far. For the record, my question was never whether I should argu with my boss or the inspector. That would never happen. The question was "do you agree the install is compliant?" And, if so, HOW would you go about discussing it. I agree with everyone who said issues must be brought up in a respectful way. In my situation, I also have my boss and his reputation to consider. Besides, I always learn interesting things by reading replies of how other people view an install.

Any comments as far as wrapping the wire where it was nicked? I don't know of a code section on that. It was just a little nick in the insulation that probably didn't even need tape, I just did it as a precaustion. The inspector thinks that the wire should be repulled because of this and I don't know of a code section that adresses this one way or the other.

On a side note, as far as weird things inspectors want, we have one that INSISTS that every panel gets it's own personal work light. Even if the panel is in the garage with 4' fluorescent lights everywhere and is lit up like a kitchen, he wants a seperate light for the panel. We don't argu anymore, we just put one in.
 
"Who You Gonna Call?"

Where DO you find this stuff? Looks like a great wedding gift for my Ex-wife and her Hunband #2 to be.
 
rookie4now said:
Any comments as far as wrapping the wire where it was nicked? I don't know of a code section on that. It was just a little nick in the insulation that probably didn't even need tape, I just did it as a precaustion. The inspector thinks that the wire should be repulled because of this and I don't know of a code section that adresses this one way or the other.
Click to expand...

There is nothing wrong with taping over a nick in insulation, that was my point about the taped split bolts. If you can strip the insulation off the wire for a split bolt splice and then tape over it, why would repairing a small nick with the same tape be a problem?


Go to 3M's website for insulation values and installation instructions for their lines of tape.

Roger
 
480sparky said:
The problem is that sometimes, the inspector just wants it that way, and has no Code reference to back him/her up.

If you know you are right, then you need to decide whether it's worth the fight.

Suppose, for instance, you wire an entire house without a single 3-way. The inspector comes in, and says 'You need 3-ways in the hallway, on the stairs, and the living room has two entrances, so put some there.'

My favorite inspectors 'request' (he calls it a requirement) was he wanted me to prewire houses so a back-up generator could be installed to run certain circuits (fridge, sump, etc.) with minimal rewiring.

I've also had inspectors 'require' a pullchain fixture, mounted within 3 feet in line with the center of the panel, on a dedicated 15a circuit. One inspector 'required' me to install a 12-3 from the panel both up to the attic by the scuttle hole and down next to the furnace ("Future use" was his reasoning). Another 'required' a dedicated 20a circuit (in addition to the 2 kitchen SABCs) for a countertop microwave. Another 'requires' at least two keyless fixtures on a switch in the attic. The list goes on.....
Click to expand...
Have you ever thought about just holding your hand out? When they look at you funny, just say "Hey, if you want me to do more than code requires, and the plans call for, you can pay for it.":D

edit to add:
I know this would be a bad idea, and you would probably loose your reputation, or maybe make a new one, but you have to admit, it's funny!
 
DanZ said:
Have you ever thought about just holding your hand out? When they look at you funny, just say "Hey, if you want me to do more than code requires, and the plans call for, you can pay for it.":D

edit to add:
I know this would be a bad idea, and you would probably loose your reputation, or maybe make a new one, but you have to admit, it's funny!
Click to expand...


Not a bad idea. I've done it.

Well, not exactly that, but the same idea.
 
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