Questioning inspector/boss

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roger said:
I agree that the service is compliant.

# 1 You're NEC article and section is correct, splices are allowed.

# 2 Show the inspector the picture below.

# 3 Ask the inspector if a gutter type service (as shown below) has taped split bolts inside of the gutter, would it be red tagged.
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There you go again, bringing common sense into the discussion. :D
 
roger said:
There is nothing wrong with taping over a nick in insulation, that was my point about the taped split bolts. If you can strip the insulation off the wire for a split bolt splice and then tape over it, why would repairing a small nick with the same tape be a problem?


Go to 3M's website for insulation values and installation instructions for their lines of tape.

Roger
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I think the inspector migh make a claim such a repair was not approved, and thus not allowed.

I personally see nothing wrong with it.

However, suppose the nick extends into the conductor. I might side with the inspector if the conductor was nicked.
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
I would talk to your boss after the inspector leaves or in private,let him know what you just stated.
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Several months ago one crew had a correction for a bonding issuse. They recieved the report and the crew drove all the way out to fix the problem. They did not check the article and just took the inspector's word for it. Weeks later, I was written up for the same so called violation, by the same inspector and I knew it wasn't right. I looked up the article and showed it to our boss, saying, "This is the second time this guy has written up the same thing, without justification or reference. The first one cost us money, but were not fixing this one." An e-mail was sent to the inspector with the appropriate code refrence and that was the end of that.

I'm of the opinion that we are all edjucating each other about these things. I really don't expect inspectors to know it all, because I sure don't. There are ways to make it better though. The above example is one way.

I used to get mad about these things, but now I enjoy the calmer approach. It really does work better.....why does it take so long to learn that?
 
If your boss has a good reputation with the inspectors he might not be to happy with you arguing with them on one of his jobs.
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TOUGH LUCK....If the inspector is wrong; as noted above handle it as an adult, but address the issue.

It will a lot of times boil down to them being the AHJ and that's how they want it. There is always someone higher to take it too, but that can be very counterproductive.
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Did I mention TOUGH LUCK.....

My first journeyman always said "Arguing with an inspector is like rolling in the mud with a pig. The pig likes it."
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Do not argue - educate, like us they can't know everything.
 
We had an inspector try to enforce a voltage drop issue. The problem was on the utility side, and voltage drop is not enforceable anyway. :mad:
 
crossman said:
This thread makes me very sad concerning what it takes to be an electrical inspector in a lot of areas of the country.
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My thoughts exactly. Here's an article I wrote a while back ( When George Pataki was Governor) for some of the newspapers around upstate New York:

In My Opinion

Fred Warner​




I began my career in the electrical industry in my childhood as an electrician?s helper, following my father from job to job evenings after his day job as a social worker for the state. For years after, I honed my skills working with others while wiring residences, banks, churches, sawmills, factories and even high-voltage power lines. One day I was approached by the Board of Supervisors of Essex County to interview for a position as Director of Building Codes and Fire Safety. I was fortunate enough to get the job and served to the best of my ability for several years educating the public about the hazards associated with inadequate building construction and to a lesser extent, the hazards associated with substandard wiring. Later I was appointed by the Secretary of State to serve on the Capital Region Variance Board of Review where I now chair, and as a member of the Building Code of NYS technical subcommittee. The more I learned about the structure of electrical safety inspections in New York State, the more apprehensive I became. So concerned was I, in fact, that I went into business with three other principle incorporators to form an electrical inspection company with the intent to ?raise the bar? by attempting to push some sort of proof of competence requirement through at the legislative level. Back in the mid-eighties, when I first became a certified building inspector, attendance at training classes was all that was required to use the title ?certified?. Thank goodness that has changed and nowadays building inspectors must not only attend the classes, but pass an exam to demonstrate competence before being certified. Building inspectors receive a few hours of in-service training on electrical hazards as a general overview, but nothing particularly specific.

Approximately 90 percent of electrical inspections performed in New York State are conducted by persons who work for third-party inspection agencies. Many of these people are not adequately trained. A small percentage of people working as inspectors have passed tests for ?one-family dwelling? and ?general electrical? and fewer yet have passed the ?electrical plan review? test. A condition known as ?inspector shopping? is widespread now and dishonest installers are flocking to the ?rubber-stamper? who ?hasn?t seen a failing job yet?, and sells fraudulent inspections routinely all the while pasting the ?OK? stickers on countless jobs. To protect themselves against this rising stock of substandard buildings within their limits, more and more communities are requiring in-house testing of electrical inspectors working within their boundaries while yet others are creating their own inspection divisions and hiring demonstrably capable personnel to staff them. Even power companies are having trouble bringing unscrupulous inspectors to task for their actions and spend more of their time and resources ?policing? bad inspectors.



?Incompetence? essentially means an inspector doesn?t know what he or she is doing. ?Simple? negligence means that an inspector has overlooked something that competent inspectors would have recognized. ?Gross? negligence means the inspector has actually recognized a violation or safety hazard and purposely overlooked it. ?Criminal? negligence means the inspector has overlooked it for illegal reasons, such as a bribe. Most of the actual charges filed for wrongful death, negligent homicide, shoddy workmanship and electrical accidents and fires are against owners, operators, engineers, contractors and installers, etc., rarely the inspector.

All these years later as I am nearing the retiring age, I am pleased to say that Governor Pataki has taken a genuine interest in making New York much more business-friendly during his stewardship and much safer as he has integrated the international family of building codes -with our state enhancements-into the fabric of our social and business complexities. You?ve done a great job with fire alarm installers, realtors and home inspectors, too, now one more job to do Mr. Pataki before you?re off to bigger and better things.

In my opinion, New York State should license third-party electrical inspectors in much the same way that barbers, cosmetologists and private investigators are. For someone to cut your hair or trim your fingernails, they must be licensed with the state, yet to inspect the wiring in our homes, theaters, churches, hospitals, medical buildings, factories, offices and other buildings across our great state, absolutely no license or other demonstration of competence is required, unless it is a function of a clear-thinking community or the inspection company itself. Building inspectors and code enforcement officials are ultimately charged with the responsibility of issuing a certificate of occupancy and they?re signing off by trusting the electrical inspector of record. Many of whom are clearly incompetent. It?s time for a change.




Mr. Warner is past President of the Adirondack-Hudson Chapter of the International Association of Electrical Inspectors, holds national certification in Electrical 1&2 Family, Electrical General and Electrical Plan Review and state certification as a Code Enforcement Official, Adjunct Professorship at Department of State Codes Division, is Chairperson of the Capital Region Uniform Code Variance Board of Review, serves as a member of the Building Code of New York State Electrical Task Force and serves as Chief Electrical Inspector and Director of Training Services for The Inspector, LLC. He lives in Jay, NY with his girlfriend and her two children.

:smile: :smile:
 
rookie4now said:
Thanks for all the replies so far. For the record, my question was never whether I should argu with my boss or the inspector. That would never happen. The question was "do you agree the install is compliant?" And, if so, HOW would you go about discussing it. I agree with everyone who said issues must be brought up in a respectful way. In my situation, I also have my boss and his reputation to consider. Besides, I always learn interesting things by reading replies of how other people view an install.

Any comments as far as wrapping the wire where it was nicked? I don't know of a code section on that. It was just a little nick in the insulation that probably didn't even need tape, I just did it as a precaustion. The inspector thinks that the wire should be repulled because of this and I don't know of a code section that adresses this one way or the other.

On a side note, as far as weird things inspectors want, we have one that INSISTS that every panel gets it's own personal work light. Even if the panel is in the garage with 4' fluorescent lights everywhere and is lit up like a kitchen, he wants a seperate light for the panel. We don't argu anymore, we just put one in.
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No way would i be giving him the extra light.If your boss wont fight this one then he is running scared of something.Might be smart to go job hunting.
 
petersonra said:
However, suppose the nick extends into the conductor. I might side with the inspector if the conductor was nicked.
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Well, I guess there would be no splices that would make the grade if you were inspecting. :grin:


Roger
 
AHJ- Authority Having Jurisdiction, Unless it's going to cost me a lot of money, it's usually better to let it slide, once you piss off the inspector he will be gunning for you. Though if you know the inspector and he is reasonable you can use tact to plead your case, There are reasonable inspectors out there. I had one that wanted to turn me down on using # 4 bare copper to a lone driven ground rod.(3000 amp service) I already had building steel and cold water grounding electrodes, and threw in the ground rod as an extra. (Most Inspectors want ground rods too even though your not required to have them) I explained to him as I understood the code that it was legal. he had me show him the section that I was referencing and agreed. Said that he had learned something. Had no further problems and he was fair on the rest of the inspections.
 
Wbalsam1, thank you, very good letter/post.
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Roger
 
I agree with Raider on the code sections. I am an electrical inspector with over 30 years in the trade. I tell the electricians I deal with if I cannot show you in the NEC a specific reference for each violation it don't exist. I have seen that all inspectors have their little areas of concern and some do not want to change when the code changes. Ask for a direct code reference nicely. If your inspector is worth his salt he will be able to give it to you.
 
rookie4now said:
Hi,

On a swrvice (which I did) he was present for the inspection and the install failed for three reasons.

2) The ground rods were attached to the cold water pipe, but the conductor did not continue to the panel. The GEC was a seperate conductor which also attached to the water pipe 3' away (within 5' of the point of entry of the building).

My comments to my boss were:
2) 250.52(D)2 "exception" allows me to attach to the water pipe and does not require that the conductor continue to the service panel.


Thanks for your input
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250.53(D)(2) would seem by the wording to not permit the installation of the supplemental electrode for the the cold water to be bonded/attached to the cold water electrode within the first 5 ft of the entrance to the building.

Both Phil Simmon's Electrical Grounding and Bonding book and Brian McPartland's National Electrical Code Handbook both agree with my statement. Or should I say I agree with them. I believe that the Soares book on Grounding also says the same.


The Exception permits you to bond to the water pipe in industrial occupancies.
 
Oh boy ,... this should be interesting.. Not sure I agree Pierre,.. But the bass are calling me and it is a beautiful evening ...

Oh to the O.P. ,..just talk to your boss explain what your point of view is and keep it calm and friendly like ,.. should not be a big deal .. If it is start looking he is not going to grow as you do,...most likely,.I got some fish to catch ,..I hope:smile:
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 47



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AHJ- Authority Having Jurisdiction, Unless it's going to cost me a lot of money, it's usually better to let it slide, once you piss off the inspector he will be gunning for you. Though if you know the inspector and he is reasonable you can use tact to plead your case, There are reasonable inspectors out there. I had one that wanted to turn me down on using # 4 bare copper to a lone driven ground rod.(3000 amp service) I already had building steel and cold water grounding electrodes, and threw in the ground rod as an extra. (Most Inspectors want ground rods too even though your not required to have them) I explained to him as I understood the code that it was legal. he had me show him the section that I was referencing and agreed. Said that he had learned something. Had no further problems and he was fair on the rest of the inspections.
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If you let a "WRONG" interpretation go then someone else suffers for your complacity...and you are perpetuating ignorance. YOU HAVE A DUTY to correct inspectors for the betterment of the industry. Just as the inspector has a duty to correct you.

There are professional ways to handle this and any GOOD inspector should be thankful for you enlightening him.
 
Well,.. I'm back and yes that is the critter I'm after ,..notice I said after ,..I got skunked:cool: beautiful sunset though ..

Pierre after reading the section I would have to agree,..with you
 
isn't it in the code that the NEC is how the ADJ interpret's it? Can't they use this as a "loop hole" to justify what they want?
 
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