Questions about Scope of NEC

[00crashtest]

It always applies to whatever the adopting agency says it applies to.

I see no real world issues with the questions you have raised.

Looking forward to seeing your PI with a new comprehensive statement of where the NEC applies for the 2026 code. The process for submission of Public Inputs to make changes to the 2026 code will be open in a month or two..

Where can I submit a public input for NFPA's NEC?

 

[ron]

You will have to wait for the 2026 NEC cycle and then you will be able to enter one at nfpa.org

 

[00crashtest]

You will have to wait for the 2026 NEC cycle and then you will be able to enter one at nfpa.org

What!? That's so late! Why isn't it 2023? The NFPA is so incompetent!

 

[jaggedben]

The NEC does apply to RVs other than as described in 551.1, which excludes 'low voltage and automotive vehicle circuits and extensions thereof". There's a somwehat inscrutable comma after that phrase, but read the scope. The article itself deals almost entirely with circuits that would be connected to a premises source of electricity, probably with an eye to cases where RVs end up being used more like temporarily stationary homes than like vehicles.

An RV which has only DC circuits powered by the same batteries that are used to power the drive train would not seem to be covered by the NEC.

 

[jaggedben]

What!? That's so late! Why isn't it 2023? The NFPA is so incompetent!

You do realize it's almost 2023 right? The code is revised on a three year cycle which begins again not long after the previous code is published. I believe the deadline for initial inputs for the 2023 code was back in 2020.

 

[00crashtest]

You do realize it's almost 2023 right? The code is revised on a three year cycle which begins again not long after the previous code is published. I believe the deadline for initial inputs for the 2023 code was back in 2020.

Now I see. I was expecting them to accept public input up until 30 days (2022-12-02) before the document is published on 2023-01-01, like CalEPA (not to be confused with the federal EPA) and the Air Resources Board under it.

 

[00crashtest]

I have taught electrical classes at air force, army, naval sub bases, air stations and shipyards, being federal they are under OSHA. OSHA uses the latest edition of the NEC. But electricians are not required to be certified and there are no permits or inspections. So in a way the NEC is not mandatory

Since federal agencies are under OSHA, does that mean the NEC applies to lighting and traffic signalling circuits on Interstate and US Highways (governed by the FHWA)? I forgot to even enquire about whether the NEC applies to roadways, since the NEC scope section makes no mention of them.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

What!? That's so late! Why isn't it 2023? The NFPA is so incompetent!

The process for the 2023 is pretty much complete...it is be published in the next week or two.

Shorty after the 2023 is published, you will be able to go to nfpa.org/70, and there will be a click button to submit a pubic input for the 2026 code. That process will be open for about a year.

After the input process is closed, the Code making panels will act on each of the submitted PIs and a first draft report will be published around June or July of 2024. There will be a short period of time, typically about 6 weeks, when Public Comments can be made on the panel action that are published in the first draft report, including making a comment on any PI that was resolved (rejected}. The Code Making Panels will review the PCs and the Second Draft Report will be published around March of 2025.

At that point there will be a short period of time to submit a motion that, if accepted as a certified motion, would be debated at the NFPA June, 2025 meeting.

The NEC is an consensus document and these steps are all required for such a document. This is a totally different process than when some unit of government issues rules and regulations as those are not consensus documents.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Since federal agencies are under OSHA, does that mean the NEC applies to lighting and traffic signalling circuits on Interstate and US Highways (governed by the FHWA)? I forgot to even enquire about whether the NEC applies to roadways, since the NEC scope section makes no mention of them.

It only applies to those types of projects if the plans and specifications says it does. Remember that it NEVER applies unless it has been adopted by some unit or government or required by contract documents.

 

[00crashtest]

It only applies to those types of projects if the plans and specifications says it does. Remember that it NEVER applies unless it has been adopted by some unit or government or required by contract documents.

Now I see. It depends on a plan-by-plan basis. I'm mainly asking about when the government agency under OSHA (state transportation departments working on behalf of FHWA in this case) has not specified what provisions of the NEC to use on a specific project, since there is no way to "follow the NEC entirely" because the NEC does not even mention roadways in 90.2 Scope.

 

[00crashtest]

The process for the 2023 is pretty much complete...it is be published in the next week or two.

Shorty after the 2023 is published, you will be able to go to nfpa.org/70, and there will be a click button to submit a pubic input for the 2026 code. That process will be open for about a year.

After the input process is closed, the Code making panels will act on each of the submitted PIs and a first draft report will be published around June or July of 2024. There will be a short period of time, typically about 6 weeks, when Public Comments can be made on the panel action that are published in the first draft report, including making a comment on any PI that was resolved (rejected}. The Code Making Panels will review the PCs and the Second Draft Report will be published around March of 2025.

At that point there will be a short period of time to submit a motion that, if accepted as a certified motion, would be debated at the NFPA June, 2025 meeting.

The NEC is an consensus document and these steps are all required for such a document. This is a totally different process than when some unit of government issues rules and regulations as those are not consensus documents.

Thank you so much for letting me know! I'll definitely put my public input then because the NFPA really needs to add clarity to their wording for the NEC.

 

[GoldDigger]

Now I see. I was expecting them to accept public input up until 30 days (2022-12-02) before the document is published on 2023-01-01, like CalEPA (not to be confused with the federal EPA) and the Air Resources Board under it.

The formal comment and draft publishing processes prevent that happening with the NEC.
Plus the fact that decisions are made by committees of essentially volunteers with day jobs, requiring a lot more calendar time to move through their business.

AFAIK CalEPA and ARB consist of government employees who deal with them as part of a full time job.
Public comment periods are set by law, but deadlines are a lot tighter.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Thank you so much for letting me know! I'll definitely put my public input then because the NFPA really needs to add clarity to their wording for the NEC.

Code changes are not easy to make...I would strongly suggest you go to the site I posted above and go to the "archived revision information" where you can read first and second draft reports, before you make any PIs. A change requires a solid substantiation of a problem and a statement showing how your proposed change will fix that problem.

I would be very very surprised if a PI to change the "use and application of the code" as found in 90.2(C) and (D) of the 2023 code would be accepted by Code Making Panel 1.

I really don't see any real world issues with the things that you are talking about related to the application of the code.

 

[romex jockey]

So in a way the NEC is not mandatory

so why bother asking

is that your message here Tom?

~S~

 

[00crashtest]

The NEC does apply to RVs other than as described in 551.1, which excludes 'low voltage and automotive vehicle circuits and extensions thereof". There's a somwehat inscrutable comma after that phrase, but read the scope. The article itself deals almost entirely with circuits that would be connected to a premises source of electricity, probably with an eye to cases where RVs end up being used more like temporarily stationary homes than like vehicles.

An RV which has only DC circuits powered by the same batteries that are used to power the drive train would not seem to be covered by the NEC.

551.1 only says that Article 551 does not cover low voltage and automotive circuits and their extensions. Does this mean that the automotive circuits (such as the dashboard, drivetrain components, and exterior lights for automotive purposes) of the RV still have to follow the requirements of all other articles, and that the NEC still applies to RVs that only have low voltage and automotive circuits?

Also, is an RV that can only run 120V circuits via an inverter from its batteries charged via mains power (with no way to bypass the battery to connect its internal circuits to the mains directly, like power receptacles on an EV) not covered by Article 551?

Anyway, thank you very much for mentioning this article to me. I could see that a motorhome is considered an RV by the NEC because it is listed under here.

 

[tom baker]

So, a government buildings department on US territory, if they had decided to follow the NEC entirely, could interpret it in such a way that all installations under "not covered" will have to comply with the "covered" section of the NEC out of an abundance of caution, because its statements are conflicting. I think those who know about British/Irish, Indian/Pakistan (which is exactly the pre-WWII British standard, if done to full code like in government buildings), and Australian/New Zealand electrical mains circuits and appliances, would know about how much more clear and strict those codes are. Their electrical systems are way overengineered compared to those in the US and Canada. Is that why electricity prices are higher by a significant margin in those places (when accounting for purchasing power parity) compared to the US and Canada?

British/Irish plugs are famous for having a fuse in every plug. They are also infamous for prohibiting electrical mains receptacles and switches in lavatories besides power-limited shaver sockets. It was only until the 2007 code edition that allowed general sockets and switches on RCD (GFCI) circuits in lavatories, and they had to be located at least 3 metres away from the nearest faucet or wet basin.

What!? That's so late! Why isn't it 2023? The NFPA is so incompetent!

Hardy. The code revision process takes 3 years and the 2023 NEC is in the final stages and will be available to purchase next month

 

[tom baker]

so why bother asking

is that your message here Tom?

~S~

Who is asking and what are you referring to?

 

[tom baker]

Since federal agencies are under OSHA, does that mean the NEC applies to lighting and traffic signalling circuits on Interstate and US Highways (governed by the FHWA)? I forgot to even enquire about whether the NEC applies to roadways, since the NEC scope section makes no mention of them.

Yes in Washington. Our WASHDOT references the NEC on those highways, byways, roadways, etc

 

[00crashtest]

Yes in Washington. Our WASHDOT references the NEC on those highways, byways, roadways, etc

What is the exact wording with WashDOT's references to the NEC. Does it just say to comply with the NEC [year] Edition entirely or does it add more specifics? If so, what are the specifics?

 

[tom baker]

What is the exact wording with WashDOT's references to the NEC. Does it just say to comply with the NEC [year] Edition entirely or does it add more specifics? If so, what are the specifics?

Look in RCW 19.29 and WAC 296-46B