Quick Hot tub question

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SiddMartin

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Have a fairly new hot tub that only has 2 ungrounded and a grounding wire to connect to. It has a 2p GFI breaker protecting it, but doesn't GFI's operate off of the neutral (imbalance on the neutral)? If this doesn't have a neu, how does the GFI operate? and also, is this okay to wire this way. All other hot tubs I have seen have been 4 wire. The wiring diag. says to wire it up as I said, but I am curious to why there is no neutral. Any ideas? GFI Breaker will still operate w/o the neutral?
 
The GFCI can work fine without a load side neutral.

If the load only uses two hots the GFCI will only look for an imbalance on those two conductors.
 
SiddMartin said:
GFI Breaker will still operate w/o the neutral?
The GFI CB does have a neutral....the circuit doesn't :wink: :-?

Here is a very similar thread from just a few days ago:
gfci breaker protection on hot-tubs

....in the thread is this fine illustration:
GFCICkt2Pole.jpg

(Thanks Al
icon14.gif
)
 
SiddMartin said:
Have a fairly new hot tub that only has 2 ungrounded and a grounding wire to connect to. It has a 2p GFI breaker protecting it, but doesn't GFI's operate off of the neutral (imbalance on the neutral)? If this doesn't have a neu, how does the GFI operate? and also, is this okay to wire this way. All other hot tubs I have seen have been 4 wire. The wiring diag. says to wire it up as I said, but I am curious to why there is no neutral. Any ideas? GFI Breaker will still operate w/o the neutral?

That was a good question Sid.
 
radiopet said:
I like that image....very clear and straight forward.

I hooked up a hot tub for a neighbor friend today (freebee job)....its a older tub....and the terminal strip reads L1,L2,Ground (which has a internal white wire going somewhere?) then a case ground "L" lug.

So I landed the wires as L1=L1 L2=L2 Neutral=hot tub Labled ground and my EGC to the L lug.

So my question is this, if there IS a 120v load being pulled from this 240v 4wire feed, wont L1 and L2 be imbalanced?

Its tripping after about 30 seconds,... then the owner said that they had this thing at a rental property for a while, and someone had a rigged 120v cord plugged to it....OH Boy...its also been sitting for ages and may be full of moisture......

any way...comments?
 
Mule said:
So I landed the wires as L1=L1 L2=L2 Neutral=hot tub Labled ground and my EGC to the L lug.

So my question is this, if there IS a 120v load being pulled from this 240v 4wire feed, wont L1 and L2 be imbalanced?



any way...comments?


No, the gfci looks for a net value, so 20 amps leaving the breaker has to return to the breaker. simple as PIE! :grin:
 
stickboy1375 said:
No, the gfci looks for a net value, so 20 amps leaving the breaker has to return to the breaker. simple as PIE! :grin:

I understand your response, but I dont think it addressed my question...

So if I had a net of 20a/240v load and net 2a/120v load...would not L1 and L2 be imbalanced?
 
Mule said:
I understand your response, but I dont think it addressed my question...

So if I had a net of 20a/240v load and net 2a/120v load...would not L1 and L2 be imbalanced?


Not to the GFCI, it would not be imbalanced, look at the diagram again.
 
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stickboy1375 said:
Not to the GFCI, it would not be imbalanced, look at the diagram again.

Ok...so I understand you correctly....your saying the GFI see's the sum of L1 and L2 and does not compare them to one another?
 
Mule said:
Ok...so I understand you correctly....your saying the GFI see's the sum of L1 and L2 and does not compare them to one another?

If it did, then it would not work. At least with 120/240 volt loads. Say you have 15 amp load, 10 comes back on L1 and L2, and 5 comes back on the neutral, still 15 amps right?
 
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stickboy1375 said:
No, the gfci looks for a net value, so 20 amps leaving the breaker has to return to the breaker. simple as PIE! :grin:
so in the OP his situation would be the same as a 3 wire dryer outlet circuit, using the bare conductor as the neutral/ground.
 
stickboy1375 said:
If it did, then it would not work. At least with 120/240 volt loads. Say you have 15 amp load, 10 comes back on L1 and L2, and 5 comes back on the neutral, still 15 amps right?
which means that this statement previously posted by someone would be incorrect:

"If the load only uses two hots the GFCI will only look for an imbalance on those two conductors."
 
All of the circuit conductors pass through what is basically a current transformer. As long as no current 'leaks' out of the circuit, there will be a net of zero current in the CT.

What a GFCi actually compares is the total current to leakage current through the earth (should be zero), which includes any conductive surfaces around the installation.
 
LarryFine said:
All of the circuit conductors pass through what is basically a current transformer. As long as no current 'leaks' out of the circuit, there will be a net of zero current in the CT.

What a GFCi actually compares is the total current to leakage current through the earth (should be zero), which includes any conductive surfaces around the installation.

So, getting back to simple....Ive never had any experience with two (out of phase) conductors passing through one doughnut.....with that said..I have to first understand that...so here's my question...Will the total current read, with, ONLY the two "out of phase" conductors passing through one CT cancel one another? I know if they are "in phase" that's how you multiply,or add, but never thought about this...:-?

So if this is true, and you had a ground fault, or current going somewhere elese, the current read on the ct on the two phases....WOULD be imbalanced, and thus trip?
 
On second thought, I have seen this....in switchgear....duh....is that a ZT? or what do the call that CT that has all of three phases running through it?
 
Mule said:
Will the total current read, with, ONLY the two "out of phase" conductors passing through one CT cancel one another? I know if they are "in phase" that's how you multiply,or add, but never thought about this...:-?
You're getting it. That's why, when using CT's for metering, you have to get the phasing correct. CT's add currents in phase, which is why you can use one CT for parallel conductors.

If you were to run all service conductors through a single CT, you would read no current, unless there was an accidental contact between a hot wire and a grounded surface (other than the neutral).

So if this is true, and you had a ground fault, or current going somewhere elese, the current read on the ct on the two phases....WOULD be imbalanced, and thus trip?
Exactamundo! That's current that 'leaks' out of the loop on the load side of the GFCI. As long as the neutral passes through the CT also (whcih it does with GFCI's), its current is included it the sensing.

As long as the supply has a grounded conductor, accidental contact between a hot wire and earth or other grounded surface (other than another conductor passing through the CT) will be sensed.

Note that contact between circuit conductors, even including the neutral, are not protected against. With a non-grounded service, an accidental contact won't develop a current the GFCI can detect.

Also, you could even have a dozen conductors passing through a CT. As long as any current in any conductor is balanced by current in another one, the CT detects no net current.
 
steelersman said:
so in the OP his situation would be the same as a 3 wire dryer outlet circuit, using the bare conductor as the neutral/ground.

Where did you get the idea this hot tub needs a neutral?

It works on two hots and an EGC, it is not like a dryer.

From the opening post

Have a fairly new hot tub that only has 2 ungrounded and a grounding wire to connect to
 
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