Quick Hot tub question

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iwire said:
Where did you get the idea this hot tub needs a neutral?

It works on two hots and an EGC, it is not like a dryer.
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Well I thought that all hot tubs have 120volt loads also inside of them like dryers. Are you saying they don't?
 
steelersman said:
Well I thought that all hot tubs have 120volt loads also inside of them like dryers. Are you saying they don't?
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Yes, that is what I am saying and what the opening poster seems to be saying.

All other hot tubs I have seen have been 4 wire. The wiring diag. says to wire it up as I said, but I am curious to why there is no neutral.
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There is no reason at all a hot tub has to have a neutral.

If the manufacturer designed it with pumps, heat and controls all 240 and there is no need for a neutral.

For what it's worth I don't think I have ever wired a hot tub, so I don't know what is normal, I am going by the OPs statements.
 
iwire said:
Yes, that is what I am saying and what the opening poster seems to be saying.



There is no reason at all a hot tub has to have a neutral.

If the manufacturer designed it with pumps, heat and controls all 240 and there is no need for a neutral.

For what it's worth I don't think I have ever wired a hot tub, so I don't know what is normal, I am going by the OPs statements.
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My Bad Iwire, I dove into this string kinda "off topic" because it had simular discussion and a good picture.....my post #8 states that my older hot tub DOES have a neutral load....
 
LarryFine said:
You're getting it. That's why, when using CT's for metering, you have to get the phasing correct. CT's add currents in phase, which is why you can use one CT for parallel conductors.

If you were to run all service conductors through a single CT, you would read no current, unless there was an accidental contact between a hot wire and a grounded surface (other than the neutral).

Exactamundo! That's current that 'leaks' out of the loop on the load side of the GFCI. As long as the neutral passes through the CT also (whcih it does with GFCI's), its current is included it the sensing.

As long as the supply has a grounded conductor, accidental contact between a hot wire and earth or other grounded surface (other than another conductor passing through the CT) will be sensed.


Note that contact between circuit conductors, even including the neutral, are not protected against. With a non-grounded service, an accidental contact won't develop a current the GFCI can detect.

Also, you could even have a dozen conductors passing through a CT. As long as any current in any conductor is balanced by current in another one, the CT detects no net current.
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Ok bare with me, Im a old timer....and Im imagining this on a scope....and with that, it seems to me that if L1 and L2 and neut where all three passing through the ct, the neutral would be a mirror image of the other conductors, rendering itself useless in the equation? other than doubling the total current value.

So in a snapshot on the scope....

L1 would be positive and neut would be negative(or neautral) but also carrying pos (or neutral)currents from L2 and vice versa? thats assuming a balanced load...which I doubt in my case...ha

Is this somewhat correct? Hope im not showing my igorance here, :rolleyes: but Ive got to go get on the job site...I'll be thinking about this all day.....later
 
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If all the conductors of the circuit pass through a single CT that CT will indicate 0 current.

It is just the same as placing an amp clamp around a running appliance cord, it will show 0 amps even though we know there is current flow.
 
Mule said:
L1 would be positive and neut would be negative(or neautral) but also carrying pos (or neutral)currents from L2 and vice versa? thats assuming a balanced load...which I doubt in my case
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That's the whole idea of passing the neutral through the CT along with the line condcutors. It doesn't matter whether there is any neutral current. If there is, its current is included in the equation.
 
LarryFine said:
That's the whole idea of passing the neutral through the CT along with the line condcutors. It doesn't matter whether there is any neutral current. If there is, its current is included in the equation.
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Ok, thanks, and now that I understand.....I did include the neutral first time and it trips instantly, then I switched it around and tried the ground to it, and it goes for around 20-30 seconds then trips.....

then I checked the brk..
I disconected the phases, put my wiggy across L1 and L2 to give it a small load, turned the breaker "on" and it stays on......hit the test and it trips...then with no load...with wiggy across any point, throws a imbalance and trips....so Im thinking the breaker is good.

So I havent tried nothing tied to the neutral screw, but wanted to check this wonderfull forum before I did,(cents theez here folks r my neyburs...haha) so with this forums wonderfull wealth of knowledge, I await your response....:smile:
 
Called a close EC friend, and he said they ALWAYS hook up the neutral IF the terminal strip calls for it......Im thinking I seen on the backplane of this control cabinet 120/240..so the small white wire must have a purpose...so Im thinking theres a problem since it trips....
 
Mule said:
Called a close EC friend, and he said they ALWAYS hook up the neutral IF the terminal strip calls for it......Im thinking I seen on the backplane of this control cabinet 120/240..so the small white wire must have a purpose...so Im thinking theres a problem since it trips....
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Check the recirc pump, thats a good one to always be a problem. Also, how do you guys troubleshoot stuff when you dont even know how to wire the stuff?
 
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stickboy1375 said:
Check the recirc pump, thats a good one to always be a problem.
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Yep, I was thinking the recirc, or the lighting xfmr....truth is I dont have time, and its time rap this freebe up......they have additional work they want me to do, and I will charge for anything else. I was just trying to repay them back for some dang good home made salsa they brought over...yum yum...so I did this hookup for materials only...
 
Mule said:
Yep, I was thinking the recirc, or the lighting xfmr....truth is I dont have time, and its time rap this freebe up......they have additional work they want me to do, and I will charge for anything else. I was just trying to repay them back for some dang good home made salsa they brought over...yum yum...so I did this hookup for materials only...
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You work for salsa?
 
steelersman said:
Well I thought that all hot tubs have 120volt loads also inside of them like dryers. Are you saying they don't?
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Jacuzzi makes several models that use 240 volt only supplies, mine takes a 50 amp circuit, it has internal step down circuitry for the lights and ect. Dryers use 240 volt for the heating elements, but 120 volts for the drum motor.
 
I hooked up one a while back, for this odd bacheler client....it had surround elclosure around it...which had showers coming from everywhere, or it could be used as a spa...it had a TV, frig, surround sound......this thing was fancy.....took one 120v/30a GFI and one 120v/20a GFI circuits....AND the guy bought it on EBAY for 2500 bucks new....I didnt see UL on it anywhere and alot of the manual was foreign.....but it was 60hz...so go figure..
 
rabtrfld said:
If it trips in 20 seconds it's not a ground fault! That would trip in about 16msec.
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That really depends on the mA current to ground.

I doubt in any case it would take 20 seconds but it can take a whole lot more then 16 msec.
 
iwire said:
That really depends on the mA current to ground.

I doubt in any case it would take 20 seconds but it can take a whole lot more then 16 msec.
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I didnt actually count the secconds, only a estimate....BUT...get this...I went over yesterday, re-landed the neutral on the breaker in preperation of telling them they have a problem, turned the breaker on and it stayed on, and the pump, or perhaps recirc started cycling....!! The customer came out the back door, said "it doest have any water in it", so I shut it off. SO if it trips again, could be in the water heater,since it stayed on with out water??........ BUT I haven't heard anything from them, so I assume its running....I just told them to call me if they had a problem
 
stickboy1375 said:
Check the recirc pump, thats a good one to always be a problem. Also, how do you guys troubleshoot stuff when you dont even know how to wire the stuff?
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SWAG Method?? :D

steve
 
Mule said:
Called a close EC friend, and he said they ALWAYS hook up the neutral IF the terminal strip calls for it......Im thinking I seen on the backplane of this control cabinet 120/240..so the small white wire must have a purpose...so Im thinking theres a problem since it trips....
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If the load terminal strip has a neutral wire, it must be connected to the GFCI's neutral terminal. Whether it does or not, the GFCI's neutral pigtail must be connected to the panel's bus.
 
Mule said:
I went over yesterday, re-landed the neutral on the breaker in preperation of telling them they have a problem, turned the breaker on and it stayed on, and the pump, or perhaps recirc started cycling....!! The customer came out the back door, said "it doest have any water in it", so I shut it off. SO if it trips again, could be in the water heater,since it stayed on with out water??
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That certainly sounds like the heating element is leaking current into the water. It's a relatively common problem; I had to replace my tub's element a few years ago.


Added: That was weird; I just tried to edit the previous post, and was told it's too late. What's weird is that the edit button is still being displayed even after the time limit.
 
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