Race to the bottom

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CopperTone

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MetroWest, MA
went to a walk through yesterday. it is a new construction residential complex - 4 units attached to each other in clusters all over the area. They are "sick" of their current electrician. doesn't show when he says he will, etc, etc I was able to get a couple of per item numbers that the other electrician used from them but they didn't want to say much. What they kept saying was - oh in this economy - you are lucky to have work, we just do the minimum - thats all we want. Their recessed light price that they claim their other electrician charges was about 60% of my regualr price - I dont think I can compete. When I asked who the parent company was, they didn't want to say.
Sounded all fishy to me. They kept on with price price price. they wanted a per foot price for a 400 amp underground service with 4 - 200 amp breakers - how does that break down by the foot? I think I will go high and everything will take care of itself.
My question is - how can these guys be making money charging so little?

Funny thing is - I know the other electrician - he always tells me how busy he is - works 7 days a week - can't keep up with everything - well, now I know why - he charges 30 -40 % less than I charge.
I would rather work 3 days and make the same money than him working 7 days
 
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CopperTone said:
went to a walk through yesterday. it is a new construction residential complex - 4 units attached to each other in clusters all over the area. They are "sick" of their current electrician. doesn't show when he says he will, etc, etc I was able to get a couple of per items numbers from them but they didn't want to say much. What they kept saying was - oh in this economy - you are lucky to have work, we just do the minimum - thats all we want. Their recessed light price that they claim their other electrician charges was about 60% of my regualr price - I dont think I can complete.
My question is - how can these guys be making money charging so little?
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Sounds like they are fishing for a low price. If their other electrician was 40% lower on the lights you would think they would stay with him. Might be other reasons they're looking for someone else. He might have bailed on them.
 
Little Bill said:
Sounds like they are fishing for a low price. If their other electrician was 40% lower on the lights you would think they would stay with him. Might be other reasons they're looking for someone else. He might have bailed on them.
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My thoughts exactly. Tell them to go find the other electrician, pick him up in a limo, take him out to dinner and then drive him home and tuck him into bed.

I've said the following here in the forum before : Never hook up with a track builder !!! You have to take all the jobs cheap and dirty and then slam them in as fast as you can - everything to meet ABC-GC's schedule. Then, your payments from ABC-GC are always 4-5 houses behind schedule. When the complex is complete, ABC-GC shuts down their operation (files bankruptcy) and opens up as XYZ-GC and you can't get the $$ you're owed
 
That is a good rule of thumb in general, not just with GC's. Some customers will hound you every moment, complain about everything, want extra work for free, etc. The only time they back off is when you write the invoice. Nowhere to be found then.
 
CopperTone said:
went to a walk through yesterday. it is a new construction residential complex - 4 units attached to each other in clusters all over the area. They are "sick" of their current electrician. doesn't show when he says he will, etc, etc I was able to get a couple of per item numbers that the other electrician used from them but they didn't want to say much. What they kept saying was - oh in this economy - you are lucky to have work, we just do the minimum - thats all we want. Their recessed light price that they claim their other electrician charges was about 60% of my regualr price - I dont think I can compete. When I asked who the parent company was, they didn't want to say.
Sounded all fishy to me. They kept on with price price price. they wanted a per foot price for a 400 amp underground service with 4 - 200 amp breakers - how does that break down by the foot? I think I will go high and everything will take care of itself.
My question is - how can these guys be making money charging so little?

Funny thing is - I know the other electrician - he always tells me how busy he is - works 7 days a week - can't keep up with everything - well, now I know why - he charges 30 -40 % less than I charge.
I would rather work 3 days and make the same money than him working 7 days
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run. just freaking run. when i'm getting ground on price before i've given one, it's never gone well.
if it was me, and i knew the other electrician well enough to be candid about this, i'd call him up and compare notes.

something that was explained to me in another context, but applies nicely to this GC:

"when you try to ride two horses at once, and they don't cooperate with your plan, you
may find yourself in an embarrassing position".
 
Had one recently ask if I could install 30 troffers for $6000 after he removed and replaced the acoustical ceiling. Started as a good deal until the demo went deeper and deeper into the job. Customer kept throwing that $6000 number at the job even though it was getting more and more expensive. He asked me when I was going to rough in all the new walls so he could get an inspection. I told him I would gladly get a crew on site that day when he signed $7600 worth of change orders. His reply was priceless. When it became obvious that he would not budge, I gave him a check for what he had paid me less fixture cost, markup and permit fees (hadn't spent any labor up to that point). He asked what the check was for, I told him it was to help him pay the poor fellow that he could find to do the job for what he priced it at and walked away. That was 8 weeks ago and he still calls wanting to work something out, I tell him I am extremely busy and would have to do it all at OT rates. He'll mumble some expletives and hang up.
 
Where resi guys tend to get in trouble is when they switch from SFD to MFD. Two different animals. My guess is that he's getting beat up by the inspectors for his installations on the rated walls and lids and like someone else mentioned, he might have been losing money on the project and walked.
 
480sparky said:
Wiring a SFD means there's no fire-rated ceilings and walls. MFD have them. Since they're not addressed by the NEC, they don't understand the fire & building codes concerning firebreaks.
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So how does that affect the electrical installation in terms of price for the EC? what wiring methods have to be different? what could the inpector give the EC a hard time about?
 
CopperTone said:
So how does that affect the electrical installation in terms of price for the EC? what wiring methods have to be different? what could the inpector give the EC a hard time about?
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Penetrations in thermal membranes. For instance, an electrical box in a 'fire wall' must have a structural mounting, not supported by drywall as old-work.

The number, size, and locations of penetrations (holes) in the separating walls are restricted.
 
CopperTone said:
So how does that affect the electrical installation in terms of price for the EC? what wiring methods have to be different? what could the inpector give the EC a hard time about?
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If the installer doesn't understand fire codes, he may end up losing a ton of money fixing what should have been done correctly the first time.
 
480sparky said:
If the installer doesn't understand fire codes, he may end up losing a ton of money fixing what should have been done correctly the first time.
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In this case regarding the OP - it is new construction and the original EC has already done 50 units or more so I am sure after the first unit, any confusion of requirements were cleared up after that one. While I can appreciate what you are saying, in this case I don't think that will be a factor.
 
CopperTone said:
do you care to explain what you exactly mean by this please?
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What all the other guys said, pretty much explained it.

I didn't say that it was "the" reason I said that it could be the reason. If he's already done 50 units and knew he had more to do, then either he's not a very good schedualer or something else is going on, that he's not coming back. Could be as simple as he's not getting paid too.
 
masterinbama said:
Had one recently ask if I could install 30 troffers for $6000 after he removed and replaced the acoustical ceiling. Started as a good deal until the demo went deeper and deeper into the job. Customer kept throwing that $6000 number at the job even though it was getting more and more expensive. He asked me when I was going to rough in all the new walls so he could get an inspection. I told him I would gladly get a crew on site that day when he signed $7600 worth of change orders. His reply was priceless. When it became obvious that he would not budge, I gave him a check for what he had paid me less fixture cost, markup and permit fees (hadn't spent any labor up to that point). He asked what the check was for, I told him it was to help him pay the poor fellow that he could find to do the job for what he priced it at and walked away. That was 8 weeks ago and he still calls wanting to work something out, I tell him I am extremely busy and would have to do it all at OT rates. He'll mumble some expletives and hang up.
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More power to you! Great when you can get out from under a butt head & it not cost you much to do it. Doesn't happen every day. I had a smaller something like that. Looked over a job, spent several hours, as house was odd shaped, hard to measure, get bearings from different rooms, floors, etc. Gave the guy a decent price to install a few receptacles & fix an item or 2. He'd already been poor mouthing, though he got 3 separate rents from people in the house. He talked to someone & called back, "I was told we could do this, eliminate that, ........, etc. I was already ill with him & said "since you have a better plan, go ahead & do it. You don't need me." He was protesting as I hung up, then tried several times to call me back. I never answered.

I had a plumber friend who did a large motel. Guy had a 500 gallon water heater. Friend advised him to install a mixing valve, to stretch the hot water supply. Guy insisted he was trying to oversell him, he didn't need that, etc. 1st night open, he was out of water by nightfall. Called plumber about getting out there next day with a valve. I can't repeat what the plumber told him. But he enjoyed it.
 
Stupid and in the dark

Stupid and in the dark

I give a price up to the fiasco point as I understand it. Explain why the price stops at a certain part. Then give a date final when the proposal is good till and what I think the costs would be after the given stop point and why. It's there presentation that made the issues murky. This sends the message you understand the job and are trying to help them with there project but will not be steered into the ground for their enrichment.

Stay in control of your scope of work, ignore the obvious noise from the presentation. Be prepared with written change orders. If they know the costs they can adjust there positions.

I hate being taken advantage of, I think everyone does. Remember it's sales and put on your salesman hat then lead them down the primrose path all the while prying their wallets out of their cold dead hands.

They have demonstrated they are ignorant of the complete scope of work, use that to your advantage.:roll:
 
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