Raise Volts Lower Amps or Raise Volts Raise Amps?

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AegusVii

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I have just begun to read about simple electronics and came across a question that's confusing me.

When considering Ohm's Law (E=IxR), lets take example numbers.

E is the unknown.
I= 3
R= 1 (to keep it simple)

Therefore E= 3x1, so E=3.

Now if I raise the amps by 1 I get this setup:
E is the unknown
I= 4
R= 1

Therefore E= 4x1, so E=4.

Raising the amps in-turn raises the volts.

But I've always heard that "Raise the amps, lower the volts. Raise the volts, lower the amps"

Considering something like a stun gun makes sense of this statement, because it uses high voltage, and if raising the voltage raised the amps then a stun gun wouldn't be a stun gun, but rather a kill gun xD haha.

So what is it that I'm missing? Does Ohm's Law have an exception or is altered by something I haven't learned yet?

Thank you!
 
You're thinking of an application with constant power. Say you have a 75 KVA transformer, and let's say it's a 480V primary and a 208V secondary. Your full load amperage on the primary side is 90 amps(75000 / 480 / 1.732) and your full load amperage on the secondary side is 208 amps(75000 / 208 / 1.732).

Of course if you're not holding power constant then you'll get the result you were seeing with Ohms law.
 
So what is it that I'm missing? Does Ohm's Law have an exception or is altered by something I haven't learned yet?
It's the later. Ohm's Law does not have exceptions, but it does not apply to all electrical equipment. Think of it in terms of resistive loads (lights, heaters), and you will be fine.


But motors are not "constant resistance" loads. Rather, they are "constant power" loads. Power comes from formulas that have (possibly with some other terms) the value of power equated to a voltage times a current. So if power does not change, and you do something to raise the voltage, in order for the equation to still work out you have to lower the current. For example, if you take a motor designed for 208 volts, and you connect it to a supply of 240 volts, it is going to run at a lower current than the nameplate would predict.
 
Wrong equation for the saying.

The saying is based on the equation for power, expressed as Watts or Volt-Amps (VA).

VA = Volts x Amps = E x I.

For a given load VA, solve for E or I: E= VA / I, I = VA/E

To feed a 2400 watt load at 120 Volts takes 20 amps. 20 = 2400/120.

Feed 2400 watts at 240 V takes 10 amps. 10 = 2400/120.


Using your example of R= 1, I =3, and E= 3. Watts or VA = 3 x 3 = 9 watts. The resistor is heating up with 3 watts.

Rasie amps to 4 with the same R, E = 4, but now you are delivering more power: P = E x I = 4 x 4 = 16 watts.

For you electronics types, if you increase the voltage on the same resistor, the amps will go up by the same ratio and the power output of the resistor will go up by the ratio squared. 3/4 = 1.666, 9/16 = 1.777 = (1.666 x 1.666). The resistor will get hot.
 
Oh wow, thank you guys so much. This is something that has been bugging me for 2 weeks now.

I understand now, the saying "raise the amps, lower the volts" isn't a rule by which it governs how amps and volts relate to each other, but rather that in order to produce the same wattage you have to raise or lower volts or amps in order to arrive at the appropriate wattage.

I was hearing the expression and thinking that it meant "If you raise the amps, the volts will automatically lower", but now I understand it clearly.

Thank you!
 
Mr. 7, welcome to the forum! :)

E is the unknown.
I= 3
R= 1 (to keep it simple)

Therefore E= 3x1, so E=3.

Now if I raise the amps by 1 I get this setup:
E is the unknown
I= 4
R= 1

Therefore E= 4x1, so E=4.

Raising the amps in-turn raises the volts.

But I've always heard that "Raise the amps, lower the volts. Raise the volts, lower the amps"
Let me try my usual "plain ol' English" style of explanation.

Ohm's Law says 1 volt will push 1 amp through 1 ohm. If you raise the voltage or lower the resistance, the current rises; if you lower the voltage or raise the resistance, the current reduces.

As the voltage varies, the current varies proportionately. If we could vary the resistance, the current would vary proportionately, except also inversely. But, that requires starting with a new resistance in our Ohm's Law calculations.

If you apply 120 volts to a 10 ohm resistance, the current will be (120/10) 12a, and the power will be (120*12) 1440w. If you apply 240v, the current will be (240/10) 24a, and the power will be (240*24) 5760w.

Note that, because doubling the voltage doubles the current, and power is voltage times current, the power actually quadruples. That explains why it's easy to burn up equipment applying too much voltage.

How would you "raise the amps" from 3 to 4 in your example? You have to remember which parameters are the constants, and which are the variables. Which are causes, and which are effects.

The problem is that you're confusing pure math from how we use the numbers in the real world. Your example follows the rules of math, but that only explains how we apply math to our equipment.

As far as Ohm's Law is concerned, we normally consider the resistance to be a constant, the applied voltage to be our controllable variable, and the resultant current, and thus, resultant power the results.

If we're designing a supply for a load, we have to start with the desired work to be done, which we're usually given using designed supply voltage, and the resulting power in watts at that applied voltage.

Let's say the customer wants to supply a 2,400 watts electric heater, and we have to choose between using 120v or 240v to supply it. Math tells us:

2400/120 = 20a
2400/240 = 10a

Notice the constant, which is the power in this case. But, we can't use the same heating element for both voltages if we want the same power output. So, the resistance is not a constant, the desired work is.

For operation on a 120v supply, the heater's resistance would need to be (120/20) 6 ohms,, whereas for use on a 240v supply, it would need to be (240/10) 24 Ohms. That means different euipment for a voltage change.

Also, operation at the lower voltage requires a greater supply ampacity. For our electric range to have the same capacity at 120v, it would require twice the current. Would you want to install a 100a 120v circuit for a range?

The point of all this is that operation on a different supply voltage requires an equipment change, giving us new numbers to use with Ohm's Law. We normally don't simply adjust the voltage alone, unless we're varying the load.


Considering something like a stun gun makes sense of this statement, because it uses high voltage, and if raising the voltage raised the amps then a stun gun wouldn't be a stun gun, but rather a kill gun xD haha.!
A stun-gun uses a very high voltage, which would normally drive a very high current through the body, but the current output is intentionally limited, so Ohm's Law is, let's say, skewed because the source isn't unlimited.

If the body had an unusually low resistance between the contact points for some reason, such as if they happened to hit, say, a belt buckle, the voltage would drop dramatically, as if there was a resistor in series with the source.

In fact, a source who's output is considered to be of a high impedance, meaning the output voltage is easily affected by the load, is modeled as if a resistor actually was in the circuit. Using that " series resistor," Ohm's Law still applies.
 
I understand now, the saying "raise the amps, lower the volts" isn't a rule by which it governs how amps and volts relate to each other, but rather that in order to produce the same wattage you have to raise or lower volts or amps in order to arrive at the appropriate wattage.
Right, and you manipulate the current by changing the resistance, so you can design equipment for use at intented power levels at various standardized voltages. You vary the resistance, Mother Nature handles the current. :)

I was hearing the expression and thinking that it meant "If you raise the amps, the volts will automatically lower", but now I understand it clearly.
Again, that applies to the math, and it also applies to transformers. Ignoring losses, power taken out is matched by power taken in. 10 amps at 120 volts is the same amount of power as 5 amps at 240 volts is.

The primary and secondary have the same voltage-per-turn ratio. The input-to-output voltage ratio is determined by the primary-to-secondary turns ratio. The 240 volt winding has twice as many turns as the 120 volt winding.

Plus, the half-as-many-turns secondary is capable of supplying twice the current as the primary, so the power in capacity is able to be matched in the output. The voltage varies with the turns ratio, the current varies inversely with it.
 
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