Range and dryer feed?

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sparkync

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It's my understanding that if the range and dryer wire is pulled from the "Main" panel outside, that 10/2 with ground and 8/2 with ground is acceptable and that 3 wire range and dryer outlets are acceptable. Am I assuming right? It's been a while, but to my remembrance, that's what the inspector told me.
Thanks
 
Sea Nile

Sea Nile

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How are you going to put it on a GFCI without a neutral? Or is that a requirement where you are?
 
roger

roger

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sparkync said:
It's my understanding that if the range and dryer wire is pulled from the "Main" panel outside, that 10/2 with ground and 8/2 with ground is acceptable and that 3 wire range and dryer outlets are acceptable. Am I assuming right? It's been a while, but to my remembrance, that's what the inspector told me.
Thanks
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No, regardless of fed from inside or outside ranges and dryers are four wire circuits. In the past they were allowed to be three wire circuits and they are still allowed in existing installations..
 
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winnie

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Please clarify if you are asking about older 'grandfathered' installations, or new installations?

Under older code, when supplied from the main panel, the _neutral_ circuit conductor was permitted to be used for bonding the appliance. (Neutral used as EGC) Depending on the wire type, this might have been a bare neutral (for example if SE cable was used), but it was a neutral serving as ground, not a ground serving as neutral.

So an SE cable could have a bare neutral/ ground, but an NM cable wouldn't pass muster.

Under current code this is not permitted.

Jon
 
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winnie

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Springfield, MA, USA
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Something I'm not clear on under current code: are you required to install a 120/240V receptacle for ranges and dryers? If the appliance were a straight 240V unit, is a straight 240V receptacle allowed?

-Jon
 
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jap

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Sea Nile said:
How are you going to put it on a GFCI without a neutral? Or is that a requirement where you are?
Click to expand...

Easy.

The GFI breaker, if used that way, would not be dependent on the neutral pulled to the outlet to operate properly.

JAP>
 
tortuga

tortuga

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Is this residential ? I have seen a commercial dryer that is a '240' but never a residential dryer.
To pull a 2 wire you'd have to have a spec sheet or nameplate that says '240V'. It it says '120/240' you'll need a 4 wire.
Keep in mind you need a grounding type receptacle per 406.4, so either a 14- or a 6- receptacles, unless its a residential replacement.
 
Little Bill

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jap said:
Easy.

The GFI breaker, if used that way, would not be dependent on the neutral pulled to the outlet to operate properly.

JAP>
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I think you still need the line neutral for the GFCI circuitry. You don't need the load neutral for it to function.
 
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jap

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Little Bill said:
I think you still need the line neutral for the GFCI circuitry. You don't need the load neutral for it to function.
Click to expand...

The Line Neutral will be in the panel unless it's like no other residential service I've ever witnessed before.

JAP>
 
tom baker

tom baker

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ptonsparky said:
2 wire with ground has not been acceptable since before I can remember. It was done, but should not have been.

GFCI or not, 4 wire has been required for new installation for quite some time.
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3 wire to dryers and ranges stated in 96. But there are many dryers with 4 wire cords that still have jumper from N to G
 
tortuga

tortuga

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And the sad thing is by '96 all ranges had been 240V for several decades, other than the oven light and the clock.
I can think of no larger scale waste of wire than the North American 4 wire range tradition. Just think of it, in every new home since '96 thats got to be miles and miles of white #8 copper just powering led clocks and a 40W oven bulb. What a incredible waste.
 
Joethemechanic

Joethemechanic

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Hazleton Pa
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tortuga said:
And the sad thing is by '96 all ranges had been 240V for several decades, other than the oven light and the clock.
I can think of no larger scale waste of wire than the North American 4 wire range tradition. Just think of it, in every new home since '96 thats got to be miles and miles of white #8 copper just powering led clocks and a 40W oven bulb. What a incredible waste.
Click to expand...
You would think they would just design them to be straight up 240v
 
tortuga

tortuga

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Oregon
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I nerded out and ran the numbers one time for a class, you can get the new dwelling units built since '96 per year from the census.
Then you need to figure the average wire length of a range run. Some houses would be all gas ranges (0 ft) some would be 100' feet max, I'd guess the average is about 25 feet.
Then all those neutrals, some might be a 6/3 romex, some in conduit would have a #10 neutral, some might 8 or 6 aluminum, but you gotta take an average so use #8 copper THHN type insulation.
That weighs 60 some lbs per 1000 FT,
your looking at about 1000 tons of copper per year.
And that's not counting units rewired, gas to electric conversions, units built with no permit (bootleg) or all of Canada.
 
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