Range and dryer neutrals

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You have always had to run a neutral to a range. In the old codes you did not have to run a grounding conductor as you were allowed to use the neutral to ground the range. The old codes are dead, you now must install both a neutral and a grounding conductor to ranges and dryers.
 
haskindm said:
You have always had to run a neutral to a range. In the old codes you did not have to run a grounding conductor as you were allowed to use the neutral to ground the range. The old codes are dead, you now must install both a neutral and a grounding conductor to ranges and dryers.
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Prior to using 10/3 wg & 8/3 wg ,all used 10/2 wg & 8/2 wg
IE : 2 hots , 1 grounding conductor.Maybe I`m mistaken but when this
was changed I always took it that it was now a requirement to provide
isolated grounding and grounded conductors.Since prior was using a
bare conductor that was considered the grounding conductor and not
the grounded/neutral conductor.
 
both dryer and range receptacles are available in flush and surfce mount.Oh a stud wall I prefer the flush mount in a 2 gange box just easier to trim out.Nail the box to the center line of the appliance area and its a breeze to trim out.Just keep the heights low and most ranges only have the center area open for the cord cap.
 
In theory the old method grounded conductor / neutral was landed on the frame of these units with 120v loads timers and motors was sending current through the frame and was and is a shock hazard. Correct Me if I am wrong. Thanks
 
I believe that is why the isolated grounded and grouding conductors were changed in residential housing.To avoid the danger of frame being energizedMy point was that it was said that the 3rd wire was a grounded conductor and not a grounding conductor.
 
allenwayne said:
Prior to using 10/3 wg & 8/3 wg ,all used 10/2 wg & 8/2 wg IE : 2 hots , 1 grounding conductor.Maybe I`m mistaken but when this was changed I always took it that it was now a requirement to provide isolated grounding and grounded conductors.Since prior was using a bare conductor that was considered the grounding conductor and not the grounded/neutral conductor.
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Back when these major-ppliance circuits only required 3 wires, the neutral was required to be insulated (meaning that a bare was not used), unless the cable was an SE type, where the bare encircled the others.

In other words, 2-conductor-plus-ground NM cables were not okay even back then. The separate bare wire requirement is what was added with the 3-conductor-plus-ground change, not the insulated neutral.

In even more other words, I agree with Allen. :shock: Oh, crikey!
 
Article 250-60 in the 1993 code said that the frames of ranges and clothes dryers "shall be permitted to be grounded to the GROUNDED CIRCUIT CONDUCTOR if all of the conditions indicated in (a) through (d) below are met." Condition (c) states that "The grounded conductor is insulated; or the grounded conductor is uninsulated and part of a Type SE service-entrance cable and the branch circuit originates at the service equipment."
So we were definitely using the "grounded conductor" (neutral) as a ground, not using a ground wire as a neutral. If a range or dryer was installed using the bare wire in a type NM cable as the grounded conductor it was and is a violation.
 
Guess I will have to back to 1000`s of passed final homes and tell these people that the wiring used was in violation :roll: My bet is that there were millions of these installs and to debate them now is a bit redundant.
Oh when have you seen #10 SE.used in a home :?:
 
Yes but for the norm 10/2 CU was always installed and that is NM not SE.I still say the original way that dryers and ranges were done when 3 wired was to have 2 hots and 1 grounding not grounded conductor
 
allenwayne said:
Yes but for the norm 10/2 CU was always installed and that is NM not SE.I still say the original way that dryers and ranges were done when 3 wired was to have 2 hots and 1 grounding not grounded conductor
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Allen in this area we also often used 10/2 when we should have been using 10/3.

The fact that we did it and it always passed does not mean it was code correct.

I will bet that the NEC rule was as it is now.
 
Allen,
Read 250.140 in the 2002 code (I think it is the same in 2005, but that is in my truck). Also read 250-60 in the older codes (such as 1993). It specifically says that the range and dryers may be "permitted to be grounded to the GROUNDED CIRCUIT CONDUCTOR...." There is no mention of a grounding conductor. The missing conductor is the grounding conductor. The grounded conductor must therefore meet all of the requirements of a grounded conductor. 10-2 NM cable does not now and never did meet this requirement. As said by others, just because you got away with it does not make it right. I exceeded the speed limit on my way to work this morning and did not receive a ticket. That does not imply that there is no longer a speed limit on that road, just that I got away with not obeying it this time.
 
I am going to check back issues, but when elect ranges first came out they did not have timers and such. They had heating elements only. I believe the NEC allowed this without a neutral.

I'm not sure when but when timers and lights started to be used, most of the time they were hooked to the existing plug.

Guess what; way back then it seemed pretty reasonable to do it that way. Some of us just keep on learning. :)
 
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