Ranges....a maximum overcurrent protective device?

[Dennis Alwon]

Say I have a 16 kw range - cooktop with a double oven- one piece. The nec states 40 amps would be compliant but obviously you may want to go higher. If this range were not in a residence I would have to use the nameplate which if the voltage were 240v the amps would be 67 amps.

Now can I run a #4 copper -no nm cable- at 75C and use a 80 amp breaker on this range?

For that matter can I install a #1 conductor @75c and use a 125 amp breaker.

I think you see where I am going. I know some of this is ridiculous but if the manufacturer doesn't state maximum breaker then it seems compliant, not practical. I am just wondering if there was something in the NEC that I am missing that would limit the overcurrent protective device.

 

[Little Bill]

If they (mfg) don't list a breaker size, I just go off the kw rating of the stove. I think the NEC is only concerned that the breaker match the conductor size. Also, any specs listed by the mfg, such as max OCPD.

 

[hbiss]

I really wish that the manufacturers of appliances like this were required to put a required OCPD rating on the nameplate. The NEC has said to use 40A forever which has become the standard. If it's the "standard" then stop making 16kw ranges. Seen any dryers that require more than 30A? I don't know why there is so much confusion.

That said, I normally provide a 50A circuit and receptacle. Range cord is 50A anyway. There is no 40A receptacle and range cord. More than 50A what do you do? Hard wire?

-Hal

 

[macmikeman]

There is lots of restrictions for breaker size vs load in the NEC which I'm not going to bother to look up right now, but none specifically in regard to this Range business. The rules which Dennis is quite familiar with I know having had discourse with him going on since 2007 at least if not before that, are sort of global in essence to any sort of load being covered by any overcurrent protection device.

 

[curt swartz]

Dennis, where are you getting the 125 amps from?

If this is a household type range the maximum overcurrent protection would be 50 amps. 422.11(B)

If this is a commercial type range the maximum overcurrent protection would be 60 amps. 411-11(F)1

If this commercial type range that meets 422.11(F)(2) you can have larger overcurrent protection but this type of unit would never be install as a household range.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Dennis, where are you getting the 125 amps from?

If this is a household type range the maximum overcurrent protection would be 50 amps. 422.11(B)

If this is a commercial type range the maximum overcurrent protection would be 60 amps. 411-11(F)1

If this commercial type range that meets 422.11(F)(2) you can have larger overcurrent protection but this type of unit would never be install as a household range.

Curt the 125 was a point I was making that there didn't seem to be a limit however I knew there had to be a limit. I don't think (b) relates to this because it says if the demand is more than 60 based on table. The table demand is 40 amps.

(B) Household-Type Appliances with Surface Heating
Elements. Household-type appliances with surface heating
elements having a maximum demand of more than 60 amperes
calculated in accordance with Table 220.55 shall have their
power supply subdivided into two or more circuits, each of
which shall be provided with overcurrent protection rated at
not over 50 amperes.

The thing is this guy turned everything on and the breaker tripped in a few minutes. He swears he will be using it like that come the holidays. The electrician used #4 nm and installed it on an 80 amp breaker which is wrong in many ways. He wanted to use 60 amps and I thought that would be okay

 

[goldstar]

It sure is nice when you know UP FRONT what the KW size of the double wall oven is. It's easy to make those calculations then. However, most of the time the HO doesn't even have a kitchen plan ready when you're wiring the house. With that in mind, what size and type wire would be a "safe bet" to install so you can get a rough-in inspection and be Code compliant ? I know that seems like a ridiculous question to ask but I run into this more often than not.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

It sure is nice when you know UP FRONT what the KW size of the double wall oven is. It's easy to make those calculations then. However, most of the time the HO doesn't even have a kitchen plan ready when you're wiring the house. With that in mind, what size and type wire would be a "safe bet" to install so you can get a rough-in inspection and be Code compliant ? I know that seems like a ridiculous question to ask but I run into this more often than not.

We just started to run #6 to be save but if this guy is using the range as he says that could be an issue also. I think he is being over cautious but I just became curious about it.

 

[jap]

Curt the 125 was a point I was making that there didn't seem to be a limit however I knew there had to be a limit. I don't think (b) relates to this because it says if the demand is more than 60 based on table. The table demand is 40 amps.



The thing is this guy turned everything on and the breaker tripped in a few minutes. He swears he will be using it like that come the holidays. The electrician used #4 nm and installed it on an 80 amp breaker which is wrong in many ways. He wanted to use 60 amps and I thought that would be okay

I would expect to be able to use my appliances at their full capacity without issue also.

This doesn't seem to be the average run of the mill oven install to me.

JAP>

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I would expect to be able to use my appliances at their full capacity without issue also.

This doesn't seem to be the average run of the mill oven install to me.

JAP>

I use to have one similar to this but I don't remember the actual kw.

GE Profile 30 in. 5 Burner Element Smart Slide-In Double Oven Electric Range in Fingerprint Resistant Stainless w/ Air Fry PS960YPFS - The Home Depot

Built on the belief that modern life needs modern solutions. GE Profile Appliances are designed to make daily life simpler by incorporating Smart Home technology and cutting-edge features in every appliance.

www.homedepot.com

 

[don_resqcapt19]

It is my opinion that the rule in 422.11(E)(3) applies to the maximum OCPD for an appliance that does not have an maximum OCPD set by the manufacturer.

As far as 422.11(B), are there large ranges that are designed for use with more than one circuit?

 

[retirede]

I use to have one similar to this but I don't remember the actual kw.

GE Profile 30 in. 5 Burner Element Smart Slide-In Double Oven Electric Range in Fingerprint Resistant Stainless w/ Air Fry PS960YPFS - The Home Depot

Built on the belief that modern life needs modern solutions. GE Profile Appliances are designed to make daily life simpler by incorporating Smart Home technology and cutting-edge features in every appliance.

www.homedepot.com

View attachment 2562289

From the specs:

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Yes the unit states 40 amp but does not state that is the maximum... That is my point. If the unit is 16 kw and was on a commercial setting then we could put this on a 70 amp overcurrent protective device.

It is my opinion that the rule in 422.11(E)(3) applies to the maximum OCPD for an appliance that does not have an maximum OCPD set by the manufacturer.

As far as 422.11(B), are there large ranges that are designed for use with more than one circuit?

So you are saying I can go 150% of the units nameplate

I have never seen a range that can be fed with 2 circuits... perhaps commercially

Not exceed 150 percent of the appliance rated current if
the overcurrent protection rating is not marked and the
appliance is rated over 13.3 amperes. Where 150 percent
of the appliance rating does not correspond to a standard
overcurrent device ampere rating, the next higher standard
rating shall be permitted.

 

[retirede]

Yes the unit states 40 amp but does not state that is the maximum... That is my point. If the unit is 16 kw and was on a commercial setting then we could put this on a 70 amp overcurrent protective device.

I could see an inspector saying “It calls for a 40A breaker. That’s what you have to use.”

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I could see an inspector saying “It calls for a 40A breaker. That’s what you have to use.”

I also can see that tripping at times....

 

[roger]

I also can see that tripping at times....

That would be the customer and GE's problem.
Did anyone notice the "Check local codes for required breaker size" comment?
Puts it on the customer to figure out if they made a bad purchase or not.

 

[hbiss]

Did anyone notice the "Check local codes for required breaker size" comment?

Local codes? I don't know of one jurisdiction that amends the Code for ranges.

I've said many times that people buy high-end ranges for their show kitchen. Most of them don't even know how to cook. Just using an oven to heat up takeout isn't going to trip a 40A breaker. This is what manufacturers go by.

-Hal

 

[jap]

I've never seen Pioneer Woman trip a breaker on her range.

A manufactured range should have the load divided with enough field connection points not to trip any breakers.

If it does, it would seem it is a Manufacturing issue.

JAP>

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I've never seen Pioneer Woman trip a breaker on her range.

A manufactured range should have the load divided with enough field connection points not to trip any breakers.

If it does, it would seem it is a Manufacturing issue.

JAP>

A range has one connection point and it is usually fed with a 50 or 60 amp branch circuit. If the range is 16kw and all elements and ovens are at full tilt they will be pulling 65+ amps.

Imo, this would probably never happen however this particular homeowner wants the worst case scenario. He actually posted here and got his thread closed because it was a homeowner.

 

[jap]

A range has one connection point and it is usually fed with a 50 or 60 amp branch circuit. If the range is 16kw and all elements and ovens are at full tilt they will be pulling 65+ amps.

Imo, this would probably never happen however this particular homeowner wants the worst case scenario. He actually posted here and got his thread closed because it was a homeowner.

And that's the problem.

That shouldn't be that way.

I agree with the homeowner.

JAP>